Quote (Thor123422 @ 4 May 2020 00:22)

I mean, yeah, it's undemocratic. You think I can type "this democracy thing would have run its course" and not know it's undemocratic? Democracy is only as good as its people. Great societies like Rome changed their style of governance several times as the need arose.

At a certain point the choices are so black and white that if the majority can't see it there's a fundamental problem with allowing them to make the decision.

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And at your specific use of the word "elitist", the founding fathers were insanely elitist. They enacted the electoral college specifically as a method of keeping the presidential election in the hands of the elites because they didn't think the average person could be trusted with that decision. That states allocate their electoral votes in line with their populations votes is a matter of custom, not law.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 3 2020 05:23pm)

Oh, trust me, I'm myself an elitist snob and looking down on the intellectual capabilities of most people.

However, I would never deny anybody of the right to make a decision about his or her own life and fortunes.

I think the age-old core belief of leftists is at play here: "we know better than yourself what's good for you". A ton of leftist/liberal politics comes down to the idea that the people have to be nudged and reeducated, that they must be forced to make the 'right' choice.

Like I said: think of Bush's reelection in 2004 and how liberal america thought all hope was lost at the time, only for them to recapture both chambers of Congress plus the White House over the next 4 years.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 3 2020 05:35pm)

Alright then. Good to see it spelled out.
I just hope you are also aware of the dangers which lie in the fact that under your proposed, undemocratic system, there would still have to be some person or institution making the call about which side is right and which side is wrong. God forbid if this person/entity gets corrupted or simply isnt on "your" side.
I'm aware of how elitist the founders were. ;)
But like I said: at the time, the vast majority of people were illiterate and lacked the basic skills and resources to inform themselves. Nowadays, by contrast, everyone has the tools to make an informed decision.
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One last, general comment: the fundamental strength of democracy does not lie in its ability to facilitate the best decisions/policies or choose the best leaders, it lies in its ability to enable a peaceful transition of power. This feature, not a higher "hit ratio", is the true strength of democracy and its comparative advantage over previous forms of rule.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 3 2020 11:23pm)

Oh, trust me, I'm myself an elitist snob and looking down on the intellectual capabilities of most people.

However, I would never deny anybody the right to make a decision about his or her own life and fortunes.



I think the age-old core belief of leftists is at play here: "we know better than yourself what's good for you". A ton of leftist/liberal politics comes down to the idea that the people have to be nudged and reeducated, that they must be forced to make the 'right' choice

Quote (Plaguefear @ May 3 2020 02:52pm)

I would vote Ron paul over Biden.

Quote (dro94 @ 4 May 2020 00:49)

Nobody here is suggesting people don't have the right to make decisions, they are saying in their opinion voting for Trump is a bad one.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 3 2020 11:57pm)

That's exactly what Thor was suggesting: if the American people vote for Trump again, then the option of making such a choice again shall be taken away from them.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 3 2020 03:14pm)

I still really doubt that this forum's liberals, like yourself, skinned, fender, crossbones etc., would accept Trump's agenda if it was pursued by a more competent politician, say a Marco Rubio or a Josh Hawley.
Keep in mind that someone more competent at running an administration and executing an agenda would have been able to enact a lot more of this agenda than Trump was.

Democratic elections are about parties trying to convince the public of their ideas and candidates, not the other way round. By definition, if the Democrats dont convince a sufficient number of voters, that's on them, not the voters. It's not the voters' job to convince themselves that party X is the 'right' choice.

... which brings me back to my previous post: "there is an objectively defined 'right' and 'wrong' choice, and if the people repeatedly make the 'wrong' choice, then the people simply should no longer be able to decide".
Do you really not realize how elitist and undemocratic this attitude is?

Btw, at the time of the founding fathers, a vast majority of the population wasnt even able to read and write and lacked both the skills and the resources to inform themselves about politics and the world.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ May 3 2020 03:14pm)

I still really doubt that this forum's liberals, like yourself, skinned, fender, crossbones etc., would accept Trump's agenda if it was pursued by a more competent politician, say a Marco Rubio or a Josh Hawley.
Keep in mind that someone more competent at running an administration and executing an agenda would have been able to enact a lot more of this agenda than Trump was.





Democratic elections are about parties trying to convince the public of their ideas and candidates, not the other way round. By definition, if the Democrats dont convince a sufficient number of voters, that's on them, not the voters. It's not the voters' job to convince themselves that party X is the 'right' choice.



... which brings me back to my previous post: "there is an objectively defined 'right' and 'wrong' choice, and if the people repeatedly make the 'wrong' choice, then the people simply should no longer be able to decide".
Do you really not realize how elitist and undemocratic this attitude is?

Btw, at the time of the founding fathers, a vast majority of the population wasnt even able to read and write and lacked both the skills and the resources to inform themselves about politics and the world.

Quote (thundercock @ May 4 2020 08:52am)

Well, that just shows you lack judgment.

Quote (Plaguefear @ May 3 2020 04:24pm)

I like libertarian ideals, some of it is pure gold, just got to sift a lot of quartz.