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Apr 4 2020 02:04am
Quote (Bourse @ Apr 4 2020 02:23am)
Don’t you think it’s naive to put all of your faith in this God? Truly, the Bible was written by humans isn’t it so? One can assume God has given them His powers for them to write the right words and pass along God’s message to humanity, but under what grounds? Besides blindly having faith, what else is out there?


Christianity's take on that is that the Bible is "the inspired word of God". A human was holding the pen writing ideas that were divinely inspired.

Now, you have to apply some common sense to that format. If God's explanation for Genesis had explained the big bang, the formation of hydrogen and helium, all matter spinning outward and forming clusters (solar systems), then the person hearing those messages wouldn't have even understood what to transcribe. The plain truth would have been worthless. Instead, the creationism story is something that was meaningful to the people for whom is was intended. The idea of "God created the Earth in 7 days" is a story with a useful message. Basically, people who read it can take away the conclusion: "The Earth was formed a long time ago by a force you don't understand. Don't worry about it, just tend to your farm". As it happens, that message is exactly what people needed to hear in order to live their lives to the fullest (in a time when no one even understood atoms).

Even after being written, the texts were translated through multiple languages by imperfect humans. Some of these humans may have even had an agenda of their own which they expressed through their editing choices (i.e. Archbishop of Alexandria who gathered the texts and decided which ones were included in the bible and which weren't). In the process of translation, some context can be lost. So it's incumbent upon us, if we want to understand the writings, to look for the underlying message that it's trying to relay, rather than trying to parse the literal meaning of the text too hard.

As it happens, God knew that humans would eventually go on to build microscopes and telescopes to discover more information about the universe at their own pace. Our knowledge increased alongside our ability comprehend it. If you think of the text as a "a story with a message, written for the benefit of a particular target audience (humans from thousands of years ago) then it's still possible to extract useful information from it. Our culture has changed a lot in that time, but in many ways some of the lessons still apply.
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Apr 4 2020 02:13am
I stopped believing in God when I realised the hypocrisy of religious people who make no attempt to live frugally in order to help others. What you would consider an average wealth today in the West would have been outrageously exorbitant in Jesus' day, and I felt guilty about having 10k in the bank and having a car because it wasn't absolutely necessary for me to have those things. How many lives could each of us save from donating to charities distriubuting malaria nets to Sub-saharan Africa with proceeds from the money and possessions we have that aren't absolutely necessary to our continued survival? It is a truly frightening thing to believe in scripture as the word of God, because no one follows it.

A more abstract belief in God does circumvent a lot of these moral inconsistencies though and I try to live a good life generally, but this is not because of a belief or fear of God. I put the likelihood of a God existing as quite low now. But if He existed I wouldn't kid myself into thinking I'd be going to heaven if we're expected to follow the testaments to the n'th degree...and neither should any of you.

Jesus said in the new testament that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".

Matthew 6:19-21 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
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Apr 4 2020 02:38am
Quote (ChivasRegal @ Apr 4 2020 03:56am)
you want to talk naive? what about the people who lived and walked around 2000 years ago when the Son of the Living God was among them.
They personally witnessed with their own eyes the countless miracles that Jesus performed including healing, raising people from the dead and casting out demons.
Yet people still mocked and rejected him. Is that naive?

Also, I won't be going off topic and discussing science, so my conversation ends here sorry.



Isn’t it all related? ;)

As for Jesus, the moral of the story, I think everyone has to learn from. The way Jesus conducted himself, his inner strength, how nothing could phase him, his forgiveness, we can all learn and benefit from what he has to offer. We all need more Jesus inside of us. But what I can wrap my mind around is having absolute faith in his existence. I don’t care whether he existed or not. No one knows if he did exist, and no one will ever know.

Believing in words from a very old book in which we have no proof, and in which the story seems... a little absurd if I may say (Noah constructing the boat in a matter of days, big enough to find two species of each animal, then ending up burning one species of each for as a sacrifice to God? how could a human manage to do that?) and which contains lots of irregularities... can’t help myself but look at other possibilities
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Apr 4 2020 02:57am
Quote (Kayeto @ Apr 4 2020 04:04am)
Christianity's take on that is that the Bible is "the inspired word of God". A human was holding the pen writing ideas that were divinely inspired.

Now, you have to apply some common sense to that format. If God's explanation for Genesis had explained the big bang, the formation of hydrogen and helium, all matter spinning outward and forming clusters (solar systems), then the person hearing those messages wouldn't have even understood what to transcribe. The plain truth would have been worthless. Instead, the creationism story is something that was meaningful to the people for whom is was intended. The idea of "God created the Earth in 7 days" is a story with a useful message. Basically, people who read it can take away the conclusion: "The Earth was formed a long time ago by a force you don't understand. Don't worry about it, just tend to your farm". As it happens, that message is exactly what people needed to hear in order to live their lives to the fullest (in a time when no one even understood atoms).

Even after being written, the texts were translated through multiple languages by imperfect humans. Some of these humans may have even had an agenda of their own which they expressed through their editing choices (i.e. Archbishop of Alexandria who gathered the texts and decided which ones were included in the bible and which weren't). In the process of translation, some context can be lost. So it's incumbent upon us, if we want to understand the writings, to look for the underlying message that it's trying to relay, rather than trying to parse the literal meaning of the text too hard.

As it happens, God knew that humans would eventually go on to build microscopes and telescopes to discover more information about the universe at their own pace. Our knowledge increased alongside our ability comprehend it. If you think of the text as a "a story with a message, written for the benefit of a particular target audience (humans from thousands of years ago) then it's still possible to extract useful information from it. Our culture has changed a lot in that time, but in many ways some of the lessons still apply.



Very interesting point. I will have to think about that further. But as a counter, do you think that line of thought could include the possibility that truly it was written by humans? If God had explained it thoroughly and we hadn’t been able to understand thousands of years ago, surely we would have made much faster intellectual progress knowing those terms existed and were given by God Himself?

If The Bible can’t transcend time and have its utility in every time, why keep up with it if it hasn’t kept up with us? Maybe the book served well 2000 years ago because it was written 2000 years ago, but clearly it isn’t serving us well today

As I mentioned in the previous post, I think The Bible has to offer a lot through its concepts and can do you wonders. But it’s those parts where we can observe that God has created the universe as a single individual, that he is All Power, yet he seems to have feelings, he seems to make mistakes, yet he knows everything and can transcend time

It is written in a literal way for some parts, and with such precision! X lived for exactly 1068 years. Then God was tired for humans to live so long. Now it’s going to be 120. How not to take it literally?
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Apr 4 2020 03:07am
Quote (Bourse @ Apr 4 2020 04:57am)
If The Bible can’t transcend time and have its utility in every time, why keep up with it if it hasn’t kept up with us? Maybe the book served well 2000 years ago because it was written 2000 years ago, but clearly it isn’t serving us well today


The Bible serves some of its utility today.

For example, not even the hard-line Christians would insist on following the practice of stoning people to death who have sex outside of marriage. That rule was written in a time where it was common to get married around the age of puberty. Despite things being different in 2020, there is still some utility to be gained if you understand the context in which it was written and absorb its message. The modern culture of casual sex carries some dangers (physical, emotional, financial, legal) and it is typically in line with modern Christian values to view the "hookup culture" as sinful. We would be wise to consider the consequences of those actions. Sex is sacred.

You can extract he utility as long as you consider the source, the target audience, the context and apply some common sense in looking for the underlying message.
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Apr 4 2020 03:09am
Quote (Kayeto @ Apr 4 2020 05:07am)
The Bible serves some of its utility today.

For example, not even the hard-line Christians would insist on following the practice of stoning people to death who have sex outside of marriage. That rule was written in a time where it was common to get married around the age of puberty. Despite things being different in 2020, there is still some utility to be gained if you understand the context in which it was written and absorb its message. The modern culture of casual sex carries some dangers (physical, emotional, financial, legal) and it is typically in line with modern Christian values to view the "hookup culture" as sinful. We would be wise to consider the consequences of those actions. Sex is sacred.

You can extract he utility as long as you consider the source, the target audience, the context and apply some common sense in looking for the underlying message.



I can agree. How long have you been reading The Bible if I may
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Apr 4 2020 03:19am
Quote (Bourse @ Apr 4 2020 05:09am)
I can agree. How long have you been reading The Bible if I may


I grew up in a Christian household, going to church multiple times a week and reading/studying the Bible throughout my childhood. When I got older and learned about science, my views of the Bible became ... let's just say ... more broad.

I don't feel comfortable self-identifying as a Christian because that label has come to mean different things for different people. I'll just say that I see utility in the text, even today.
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Apr 9 2020 10:33pm
Quote (Kayeto @ Apr 4 2020 05:19am)
I grew up in a Christian household, going to church multiple times a week and reading/studying the Bible throughout my childhood. When I got older and learned about science, my views of the Bible became ... let's just say ... more broad.

I don't feel comfortable self-identifying as a Christian because that label has come to mean different things for different people. I'll just say that I see utility in the text, even today.



can we be friends
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Apr 10 2020 06:22am
Quote (Bourse @ Apr 4 2020 06:38pm)
Isn’t it all related? ;)

As for Jesus, the moral of the story, I think everyone has to learn from. The way Jesus conducted himself, his inner strength, how nothing could phase him, his forgiveness, we can all learn and benefit from what he has to offer. We all need more Jesus inside of us. But what I can wrap my mind around is having absolute faith in his existence. I don’t care whether he existed or not. No one knows if he did exist, and no one will ever know.

Believing in words from a very old book in which we have no proof, and in which the story seems... a little absurd if I may say (Noah constructing the boat in a matter of days, big enough to find two species of each animal, then ending up burning one species of each for as a sacrifice to God? how could a human manage to do that?) and which contains lots of irregularities... can’t help myself but look at other possibilities


It would not have taken a matter of days to build the Ark. There is quite a bit of Mathematics involved but it may have taken between ~55-75 years (estimate) to build the Ark. It certainly wasn't built in a matter of days. All we know is that in Genesis 5:32 Noah was 500 years old when he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth. In Genesis 7:6 Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
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Apr 10 2020 06:52am
Quote (dro94 @ Apr 4 2020 04:13am)
I stopped believing in God when I realised the hypocrisy of religious people who make no attempt to live frugally in order to help others. What you would consider an average wealth today in the West would have been outrageously exorbitant in Jesus' day, and I felt guilty about having 10k in the bank and having a car because it wasn't absolutely necessary for me to have those things. How many lives could each of us save from donating to charities distriubuting malaria nets to Sub-saharan Africa with proceeds from the money and possessions we have that aren't absolutely necessary to our continued survival? It is a truly frightening thing to believe in scripture as the word of God, because no one follows it.

A more abstract belief in God does circumvent a lot of these moral inconsistencies though and I try to live a good life generally, but this is not because of a belief or fear of God. I put the likelihood of a God existing as quite low now. But if He existed I wouldn't kid myself into thinking I'd be going to heaven if we're expected to follow the testaments to the n'th degree...and neither should any of you.

Jesus said in the new testament that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".

Matthew 6:19-21 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."


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