And which of those attributes has given rise to what is without a doubt the ruling species on the planet? Intelligence. I think there's a pretty fair argument for "advanced" to mean intellectually advanced and for that to be the defining characteristic of this conversation.

Very good point and I completely agree. Humans are significantly more capable as moral agents of improving the lives of others, and this I think is a very important point, and it's a large portion of why, God forbid I'd have to choose between the life of a random toddler and a random cow, I'd choose for the toddler to live (lifespan also plays a part, but do the same thought experiment with a tortoise and a human and I'd choose the same).

However, one has to consider that humans also have a greater opportunity to create more suffering in the world than any other animal. I think that the number of good people pretty significantly outnumbers the number of bad people, though, so I think in general human life ought to be valued higher than non-human animal life. Though I think we need to be really careful not to diminish the importance of non-human lives as ends in themselves. For example I'd value the lives of 100 free range cows over the life of one random human (again, God forbid anyone would have to make such a decision).



But isn't bias something to be avoided? Generally, bias refers to a preference for one thing or category of things over another without any good reason for that preference.

When an individual is aware of his/her bias it seems to me to be a situation where he/she would (or should) self-correct as to not retain that bias.

This post was edited by Voyaging on Oct 3 2014 01:21am

Brace yourselves for the wall of text that follows:
(Im posting it all in one text because i dont have the time to follow through the thread and reply piece by piece. But I do challenge people to argue against these points im making, you may even change my beliefs - though, I doubt it)


Abortions are (most safely) done in the first trimester. In fact, over half of all abortions are obtained within the first 8 weeks.
Fewer than 2% occur at 21 weeks or later. The vast majority of women - 88% - who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions also have less than 0.05% risk of a complication that requires hospital stay, and do not affect a woman's health of future ability to become pregnant or give birth.
A fetus cannot exist independently of the mother during the first trimester. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb.


When we talk about criminalizing abortion, we are talking about the government forcing a woman to give birth against her will.
The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force women to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?


"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth - that is why they are there." - Martin Luther
Freedom of religion is guaranteed to any citizen in Australia; so why would the beliefs and values of one religion mandate actual laws for all citizens? It would be unfair, unjust and immoral.


What about abortion in the case of rape or incest? Forcing a woman made pregnant by this violent act would cause further psychological harm to the victim.
Often a woman is too afraid to speak up, or is unaware that she is pregnant, thus the morning after pill is ineffective in these situations. Abortion is the only reasonable answer.


Teenage pregnancies and stress? Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future. They are much more likely to leave school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; develop health problems; or end up divorced.
Like any other difficult situation, abortion creates stress.. Yet the American Psychological Association found that stress was greatest prior to an abortion, and that there was no evidence of post-abortion syndrome.


Now, i'll address the standard form argument claiming abortion is 'murder'
- It is wrong to kill innocent human beings
- The embryo is an innocent human being.
- Hence it is wrong to kill the embryo.

'Human being' is used in different senses in (1) and (2). In (1), 'human being' is used in a moral sense to mean a 'person', a 'full-fledged member of the moral community'.
In (2), the 'human being' means 'biological human'. It does not follow that the embryo is a person, and it is persons that have rights, such as the right to life.


Lastly, what defines a 'human being'..
The great Carl Sagan said:
"If you deliberately kill a human being, it's called murder. If you deliberately kill a chimpanzee -- biologically, our closest relative, sharing 99.6 percent of our active genes -- whatever else it is, it's not murder. To date, murder uniquely applies to killing human beings. Therefore, the question of when personhood arises is key to the abortion debate. When does the foetus become human?"
- So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood?
-When its face becomes distincly human, near the end of the first trimester?
-When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli - again, at the end of the first trimester?
-When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

None of these particular developmental milestones involve uniquely human characteristics -- apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and a large number are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought.
By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skill. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the foetus until about the thirtieth week of pregnancy - near the beginning of the third trimester.


Conclusion - no person has any inherent or implied, legal or moral right to occupy another.

Life begins at erection

actually it begun when the first organism came into existence within primordial soup like conditions.

From that point on it reproduced, mutated, and evolved through natural selection to become us and all the other animals on earth.

Therefore, us and all other living organisms are effectively related and merely products of different forms of mutation/evolution.



This post was edited by PixileDust on Oct 3 2014 02:32am

What I would like to see governments do to reduce abortions:

-Increase paid maternal leave (iirc the US doesn't even have this?)
-Psychological counseling for young mothers(-to-be), no charge.
-Mandatory sex-ed including contraception
-Funding of male birth control. Vasalgel looks to be promising.

The anti-abortion movement in the US is more about social control of women than it is saving babies. Male control of female reproduction has always been a major historical conflict.

This post was edited by Skinned on Oct 3 2014 04:35am

[QUOTE=FrozenWater,3 Oct 2014 02:25]Brace yourselves for the wall of text that follows:
(Im posting it all in one text because i dont have the time to follow through the thread and reply piece by piece. But I do challenge people to argue against these points im making, you may even change my beliefs - though, I doubt it)]

I'm not going to re-post the whole thing but this was a very good post and not speaking for Scaly but it was what I was hoping for when reading this thread

It has always been my feeling (belief) that a woman's body is her own and it is up to her to make the decision
I do think that there should be every bit of support she may need available whether it's counseling pre or post abortion
contraception is vital and need the last shreds of stigma stripped off, sure abstaining is best for young folk until they fall in lust for the first time then try and stop them, I mean seriously?
we do need to draw a line on when a baby is a baby and when it's a fetus, the medical terms call a un-born child being carried in the mothers womb a fetus.
while it's a fetus, it should be the mother's decision.

It amazes me that the most vehement warmongers on this forum are also the most vehement anti-abortionists

This post was edited by Valhalls_Sun on Oct 3 2014 05:28am

That's all well and good for you. I cannot use God's will as part of my justification for a particular worldview because i do not believe that God exists. Therefore I must use reason to determine the morality of things... which is a tough mission, but worthwhile imo. That's why I asked that 'because god says so' be stricken from this conversation as it adds nothing constructive to the debate. We're all aware of fundamentalists views on abortion and if we refuse to accept them as the absolute arbiters of morality only then can a conversation happen.



Rambling or no - still the best answer so far.

I would say that my morality in most other questions hinges on the least possible suffering caused... but of course if you take that to it's conclusion then that means that abortion is always morally preferable as if a creature does not live then it cannot suffer. I think more so there has to be a balance. Potential is important imo... If a man will suffer greatly but has the potential to do something great, and wants to, then I would say it is often our moral duty to allow him and indeed support him on that path - even if all he attains is suffering. Reducing this to the question of life. A blastocyst has the potential to become something great - a happy, healthy, human being - when it doesn't, such as in the case of extreme deformity or poverty, then I would support abortion.

I honestly don't think that there can be a blanket statement on abortion being right or wrong and I would agree that it has to be judged on a case by case basis.

This post was edited by Scaly on Oct 3 2014 05:40am

Do we have any women posters in here?

Its always men discussing it in here, same dead ends and arguments every time