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May 8 2013 05:50am
Quote (TheBadLuitenant @ May 7 2013 07:38am)
Right, I understand. But didn't the Heller decision soley emphasize "the right of the people to keep and bear arms"?

Perhaps not, but if that is the case it smacks of judicial activism.

But I'm just a caveman, your world frightens and confuses me.


The Heller decision indeed confirmed what has been known all along: that the right to bear arms is an individual right, no different than the right to free speech or to practice religion.

Quote (JEB90 @ May 7 2013 10:39am)
One, that's an argument for an actual militia, not an argument against gun control.  Two, weren't you talking about original intent rather than contemporaneous understanding? (nice word of the day, by the way)  Three, that's the kind of tortured logic that gives people pause about the judiciary (similarly to the Obamacare ruling, to be honest).  We have about as much chance of flapping our arms and flying to the moon as being called up for the militia.  And, if by some miracle, we were, the first thing they'd do is pass out weapons.


I can see how you would construe the argument that way, but when all men were considered potential members of the militia, we're down to semantics. Six of one, a half dozen of the other. Contemporaneous to the founders, not our contemporaries. So things like the Federalist Papers are what I was alluding to. I have no idea what logic you think is tortured, the Constitution does not lay out any group rights, it lays out individual rights. And militias were expected to provide their own arms.
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May 8 2013 11:28am
Quote (N1ccolo @ May 7 2013 04:03pm)
Why the fuck would anyone want to walk through Idaho?


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May 8 2013 11:32am
Quote (Santara @ May 8 2013 05:50am)
The Heller decision indeed confirmed what has been known all along: that the right to bear arms is an individual right, no different than the right to free speech or to practice religion.



I can see how you would construe the argument that way, but when all men were considered potential members of the militia, we're down to semantics. Six of one, a half dozen of the other. Contemporaneous to the founders, not our contemporaries. So things like the Federalist Papers are what I was alluding to. I have no idea what logic you think is tortured, the Constitution does not lay out any group rights, it lays out individual rights. And militias were expected to provide their own arms.


The bold is the key. For all intents and purposes, you know we don't have militias any more. You also know that even if we ever did have need for militias, they would not supply their own weapons. Claiming otherwise to support gun rights today is the tortured logic I am referring to. Maybe we should have gun control; maybe we shouldn't. The current interpretation by this court is skeptical. I'm not sure that will always be the case.
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May 8 2013 11:52am
Quote (JEB90 @ May 8 2013 12:32pm)
The bold is the key.  For all intents and purposes, you know we don't have militias any more.  You also know that even if we ever did have need for militias, they would not supply their own weapons.  Claiming otherwise to support gun rights today is the tortured logic I am referring to.  Maybe we should have gun control; maybe we shouldn't.  The current interpretation by this court is skeptical.  I'm not sure that will always be the case.


The issue of guns being "for the militias" is covered here extensively: http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndpur.html
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May 8 2013 12:51pm
I think I'll participate, thanks for sharing.
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May 8 2013 12:54pm
Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ May 6 2013 05:25pm)
We're talking about nice, upstanding Republicans. Not blacks.


Damn straight.
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May 8 2013 01:23pm
Quote (Santara @ May 8 2013 11:52am)
The issue of guns being "for the militias" is covered here extensively: http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndpur.html



From GunCite.com? A very objective view there. Nonetheless, I glanced through their cites. I particularly like this one from Federalist 29:

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped ; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year."

The argument about gun control has nothing to do with militias. We don't have them any more.
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May 8 2013 01:29pm
Quote (JEB90 @ May 8 2013 02:23pm)
From GunCite.com?  A very objective view there.  Nonetheless, I glanced through their cites.  I particularly like this one from Federalist 29:

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped ; and in order to see that this be not neglected,it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year."

The argument about gun control has nothing to do with militias.  We don't have them any more.


If you want your side's side of the story, try http://www.bradycampaign.org/.

So you're surprised that they called for training?

It does if you oppose the 2nd amendment.
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May 8 2013 02:20pm
Quote (Santara @ May 8 2013 01:29pm)
If you want your side's side of the story, try http://www.bradycampaign.org/.

So you're surprised that they called for training?

It does if you oppose the 2nd amendment.



Of course they are calling for training. Militias were important back then. They don't exist now. If that is only argument against gun control, it's a poor one.
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May 8 2013 02:36pm
Quote (JEB90 @ May 8 2013 03:20pm)
Of course they are calling for training.  Militias were important back then.  They don't exist now.  If that is only argument against gun control, it's a poor one.


Militias exist as the National Guard these days.

The argument against gun control is that the 2nd amendment isn't a right of the militia, it's a right of the individual. It is simply expressed through the militia.
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