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Nov 13 2024 11:25am
AI is to the workforce what botting is to magic finders. Be ready for it.
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Nov 13 2024 11:25am
Quote (IceMage @ Nov 13 2024 11:11am)
Because companies can survive on way less tech budget than they previously paid. It might have bad results long-term but short-term it's great. That's what Elon did at Twitter.


A company can survive just fine, its the workers who are being replaced en masse by AI, like penis hat said, without any other sectors or technology jobs rising to replace it.
America used to employee a hundreds of thousands of women as telephone operators, that profession went the way of the iceman, but growth easily replaced it.
That's not the case now as AI is sparking mass layoffs without new openings.



I could prompt an AI to write its own country music song about it in a few seconds, no need for Del Reeves to illustrate the point
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Nov 13 2024 11:28am
Quote (IceMage @ Nov 13 2024 08:29am)
What has ChatGPT actually accomplished? Lazy students generating papers?

I code and the idea that AI would take my job is so absurd that I have to question the sanity of the person who would say it. At best they have no idea what they are talking about.

And if AI can't replace me, it's not replacing anybody. Edit- Except perhaps the most useless purveyors of information.


The AI chatbot has, hilariously, largely been a failure. People mainly used it to cheat in school. And then when the chatbots started spitting out absurdly incorrect and even dangerous information, such as putting glue on your food, their credibility has essentially vanished.

Not to mention that clown circus that was Google AI putting out absurdly woke racially biased nonsense.

For high level coders, of course AI won't affect your jobs, given that high level coders are the people who actually CREATE the AI! It does however invalidate alot of low level monkey coders - in much the same way that the steam engine invalidated alot of low level monkey labourers etc.
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Nov 13 2024 11:38am
idk, ai is getting pretty good lately, at least at animation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Yh4cnAII0
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Nov 13 2024 11:39am
I'll never understand why people downplay AI so much, this technology has proven to be capable of highly skilled functions. For example, one of the highest paid sales professionals are tasked with calling on executives to pitch. AI has proven its ability to call on venture capitalists, pitch an idea and win funding.

I worked alongside manufacturers for a couple of years, specifically in 13 states on the East coast. Many plants are looking to completely switch over their facilities and are either in the process right now or will be within the next 5-10 years. Majority of these plants want to wipe out over 50% of their labor force in favor of automated machinery, some of them want to wipe out over 80%.

Then I worked for a software company where my main task each day was to develop processes that could replace myself to streamline purchase orders to shipping or electronic delivery of software/hardware.

AI is going to be a slow boil that many industries including those with specific skills want to implement to reduce labor costs. Eventually, we'll need laws to prevent too many layoffs or something in place to redirect these profits to the people, so we don't have a ton of homeless unemployed people turning to stealing.
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Nov 13 2024 12:07pm
Quote (El1te @ Nov 13 2024 12:19pm)
I agree on most of this. I am overall making a distinction between automation and AI, which are related but not the same.

Automation certainly invalidates many jobs - however, it doesn't invalidate human capital - the nature of the jobs changes, people need to find new jobs & learn new skills, etc. For example, many people who learned to code for the world of the 2010's were invalidated by further advances in computational technology, thus thousands upon thousands of them got laid off. Those people will now have to learn a new skill to made ends meet, be that learning to mine, learning to plumb, learning to pipefit etc.

To your line 2), I disagree that the advances are exponential - we have already met the physical limit on transistor size without encountering non-negligible quantum tunneling issues, so computational power is now relatively static. It's not getting more powerful. We can build bigger and bigger computers, but the transistor boom is over. Quantum computers are still largely a fictional imagination, much like nuclear fusion energy - I wouldn't count on these being commercially available in our lifetime.

I also believe it isn't wrong to compare our present situation to the past. The textile mill, steam engine, computer, all technological advancements led to many many people's jobs being supplanted/invalidated. But that didn't mean jobs went away altogether - they simply changed, with perhaps more service jobs becoming available. The idea that people can automate everything & not work is largely a utopian fiction - people 200 years ago thought that and they were wrong, same with people today. The path though as you mention might be bumpy, it might be mildly bumpy or very bumpy, it's hard to predict.

Note that my perspectives are from the perspective of a physical scientist, not a mathematician or computer programmer. I don't code. My brother however is a master coder & mathematician who works with the world's leaders in the field of mathematical programming, optimization & machine learning.


im gonna focus in on the bolded because it's important to understand. the past almost NEVER had full automation. even when machines were created to seam baseballs or weave cloth, human hands were required in many places along the process.

this is not going to be manufacturing in the future, and transportation is heading the same direction. if we lose those industries and humans do zero or almost zero in them, especially with an increasing population, there simply aren't enough jobs left even if emerging industires grow.

a lot of times people rest on the assumption that "well, we can't have 50%+ unemployment, supply and demand. if there's that much supply of workers we MUST find something for them". this is a BRAVE assumption, and not bore out in reality imo.

in the past workers displaced in large areas could move a block over or even a city over and almost instantly find new work. what happens in large swaths of the country where the gap between unskilled and skilled labor is so great that once the plant closes you're just sunk, forever. no options, learn to code or die on welfare.

my main point in all of this isn't that it 100% will come soon, or be as bad exactly as i say, but rather that the chance is so great we need to act preemptively to create systems to help smooth out the bumps. i still think 100 years from now we in america on average will live in 1 bedroom govt apartments and take a stipend which goes up if you volunteer to get yourself spayed or neutered. im taking steps with my family to guarantee that wont be my kids or their kids, we as a country should do the same. instead we sell of most of the land to vanguard and blackrock.
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Nov 13 2024 01:11pm
Quote (El1te @ Nov 13 2024 06:07pm)
Hell, "cyborg" music (technologically enhanced music) is already the norm today (the South Park episode with Randy as Lorde satirized this). It will be interesting to see what musicians & producers can put out with powerful AI at their fingertips


I can illustrate the problematic on that music example. Most "AI" are trained with digitalized data feeds with parameters. In case of the music, it would be all of the music files available in the WWW. After extracting the vector, you can generate your own music BASED on those sampling feeds. It means you cannot generate outside of the sampling pool subset. The problem is for example, something like Rock'N Roll didn't exist 100years ago. The style developed from Blues with the advance of technology and electrical guitar. You won't be able to produce a new music movement with new instruments by using AI. You'd still need those artists who meet the zeitgeist criteria the best to stand out and sell their products. We arrive at the second problem. To develop the sense of music and zeitgeist, those people developed a culture where they try different stuff and fail multiple times until they succeed. Most of those famous bands started out as small time high school bands who were largely unpopular until they had their breakthrough.
So in conclusion, the idea of generating or creating music via AI is a very profiting endeavor short term but you kill off the culture of the art behind the discipline to produce new or better results alas creativity. And having someone with creativity alone isn't enough to have a successful composer or musician. Those products won't sell long term.

On the other hand, there are disciplines like surgery. That's something which can be automated to the great benefit of most people. It'll be cheaper and safer to have it done by an automated machine under the directive of an expert doctor than having to educate shitloads of expensive doctors for a long time only for them to leave the country somewhere else or ask for very high salary to cover for the costs of their long education span.

In case of programming, just being able to program is going to be useless. AI most likely is going to be used to generate code as a tool for standard procedures like a socket class for connection or other function/methods you might need daily. If you want to keep your job, you should be able to abstract a problem, find a solution you can prove, write an UML how it can be implemented then use the AI to implement those function/methods. You might still have people who optimize backend and low level code for better runtime and compilation and the ones who design/implement. In-between coders are going to disappear as well :D

This post was edited by babun1024 on Nov 13 2024 01:15pm
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Nov 13 2024 01:18pm
Quote (babun1024 @ Nov 13 2024 11:11am)
I can illustrate the problematic on that music example. Most "AI" are trained with digitalized data feeds with parameters. In case of the music, it would be all of the music files available in the WWW. After extracting the vector, you can generate your own music BASED on those sampling feeds. It means you cannot generate outside of the sampling pool subset. The problem is for example, something like Rock'N Roll didn't exist 100years ago. The style developed from Blues with the advance of technology and electrical guitar. You won't be able to produce a new music movement with new instruments by using AI. You'd still need those artists who meet the zeitgeist criteria the best to stand out and sell their products. We arrive at the second problem. To develop the sense of music and zeitgeist, those people developed a culture where they try different stuff and fail multiple times until they succeed. Most of those famous bands started out as small time high school bands who were largely unpopular until they had their breakthrough.
So in conclusion, the idea of generating or creating music via AI is a very profiting endeavor short term but you kill off the culture of the art behind the discipline to produce new or better results alas creativity. And having someone with creativity alone isn't enough to have a successful composer or musician. Those products won't sell long term.

On the other hand, there are disciplines like surgery. That's something which can be automated to the great benefit of most people. It'll be cheaper and safer to have it done by an automated machine under the directive of an expert doctor than having to educate shitloads of expensive doctors for a long time only for them to leave the country somewhere else or ask for very high salary to cover for the costs of their long education span.

In case of programming, just being able to program is going to be useless. AI most likely is going to be used to generate code as a tool for standard procedures like a socket class for connection or other function/methods you might need daily. If you want to keep your job, you should be able to abstract a problem, find a solution you can prove, write an UML how it can be implemented then use the AI to implement those function/methods. You might still have people who optimize backend and low level code for better runtime and compilation and the ones who design/implement. In-between coders are going to disappear as well :D


all popular music has been ai generated for generations
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Nov 13 2024 01:21pm
Where AI will cause a job boom is somewhere else :lol: The biggest threat to an AI is ...... humans. There'll shitloads of hackers and other opportunists trying to access networks directly for personal benefit. Companies are going to hire mercenaries to protect their plants from other humans. No system is human proof and only humans can ward off other humans :lol:

This post was edited by babun1024 on Nov 13 2024 01:21pm
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Nov 13 2024 03:38pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Nov 13 2024 01:25pm)
A company can survive just fine, its the workers who are being replaced en masse by AI, like penis hat said, without any other sectors or technology jobs rising to replace it.
America used to employee a hundreds of thousands of women as telephone operators, that profession went the way of the iceman, but growth easily replaced it.
That's not the case now as AI is sparking mass layoffs without new openings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN61if3zYJs

I could prompt an AI to write its own country music song about it in a few seconds, no need for Del Reeves to illustrate the point


Why would anyone need that? Lol. If you want to demonstrate how AI is going to take over jobs, why are you showing us how it's good at some useless task?

Quote (El1te @ Nov 13 2024 01:28pm)
The AI chatbot has, hilariously, largely been a failure. People mainly used it to cheat in school. And then when the chatbots started spitting out absurdly incorrect and even dangerous information, such as putting glue on your food, their credibility has essentially vanished.

Not to mention that clown circus that was Google AI putting out absurdly woke racially biased nonsense.

For high level coders, of course AI won't affect your jobs, given that high level coders are the people who actually CREATE the AI! It does however invalidate alot of low level monkey coders - in much the same way that the steam engine invalidated alot of low level monkey labourers etc.


I don't think this is true. If AI were great at writing code for an existing project, more developers would be using it. AI can be useful, but you need a developer to provide the right inputs and adjust the produced code to fit into the existing project.

If AI were great at producing useful code I would use it much more. It's not.

Quote (MildSambal @ Nov 13 2024 01:39pm)
I'll never understand why people downplay AI so much, this technology has proven to be capable of highly skilled functions. For example, one of the highest paid sales professionals are tasked with calling on executives to pitch. AI has proven its ability to call on venture capitalists, pitch an idea and win funding.

I worked alongside manufacturers for a couple of years, specifically in 13 states on the East coast. Many plants are looking to completely switch over their facilities and are either in the process right now or will be within the next 5-10 years. Majority of these plants want to wipe out over 50% of their labor force in favor of automated machinery, some of them want to wipe out over 80%.

Then I worked for a software company where my main task each day was to develop processes that could replace myself to streamline purchase orders to shipping or electronic delivery of software/hardware.

AI is going to be a slow boil that many industries including those with specific skills want to implement to reduce labor costs. Eventually, we'll need laws to prevent too many layoffs or something in place to redirect these profits to the people, so we don't have a ton of homeless unemployed people turning to stealing.


Automation has been replacing jobs for decades, and sure, AI will help accelerate that. I'm just skeptical when people talk about AI taking over everything when people can't actually provide good examples of how it's happening now.
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