d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Trump Indicted By Special Counsel
Prev1383940414261Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Jun 13 2023 08:38pm
Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jun 13 2023 07:59pm)
Dumb Stuff


You keep going on about the ability to declassify. None of the charges turn on the president's ability to classify or declassify anything. Even if we accept that argument that Trump declassified everything with his mind he would still be in trouble. Hell, if he had gone through the process and got the classification marks removed, he would still be in trouble.
Member
Posts: 27,048
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Gold: 14,569.69
Jun 13 2023 08:41pm
Quote (Ghot @ Jun 13 2023 04:37pm)


Cope harder
Member
Posts: 12,201
Joined: Feb 13 2010
Gold: 14.88
Jun 13 2023 08:42pm
Quote (Sioux @ Jun 13 2023 07:19pm)
Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes.


People misspeaking and quotes taken out of context are nothing new to the criminal justice system.

It sucks because there's not a lot to actually discuss about it. I think that's why people talk about the double standard and political machinations, since the case itself is pretty debatable. On one hand, he may not be guilty. On the other, his being President might make all the charges non-applicable. It's not a solid case on a variety of levels.

I personally think the more interesting conversation is how the FBI, CIA, DoJ and Pentagon are so undeniably in cahoots to take him down. It truly has been a scenario of "There's the man, now find the crime" since day one. I'm shocked after seven years this is all they have. He's a lot cleaner than I would have believed when I voted for him in 2016.
Member
Posts: 49,893
Joined: Jun 19 2006
Gold: 3.88
Jun 13 2023 08:43pm
Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jun 14 2023 10:59am)
What is said on tape doesn't matter. He's an old guy, he gets confused. I'm sure he meant they were just not publicized, rather than remaining classified. Since he declassified all of the documents when he took them out of the White House, they remain declassified. He has unilateral authority on this matter.

I'm not a major fan of discussing the clear hypocrisy of the Justice Department. We all know they're corrupt, so I see no reason to point out the double standard. The point is, it's established law.




Now, as the President said, the National Archive was negotiating with his people over their access to various documents. I'm not sure if these were the original and sole copies of these documents (I doubt it) and it seems the most extreme are rather outdated. Since it's apparently an audio recording, he could be waving around a folder with a big "CLASSIFIED" stamp on it, never showing the contents to the people he's talking to. I don't know, I don't think you know either. It'll probably come out in trial. I'm thinking from the perspective of reasonable doubt and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the accused, as the jury will be instructed to do.

As far as telling a lawyer to destroy evidence, I'm a reasonable person and that sounds like dark humor to me. The President tends to be a funny, hyperbolic guy, so I take everything he says with more than a grain of salt. It proves nothing. In any case, all the documents were retrieved (unlawfully) so it's clear this scenario you imagine in your head didn't come to fruition.

It's just a weak case. His being President renders most of this meaningless. You'll have to have a Federal Judge make a declarative statement on the President's authority on declassification, which sounds like it could go to the Supreme Court. However, the Constitution grants the President these vast powers and trying to delegate his authority to the Judiciary, or have them in some way police his authority, runs contrary to the purpose of his office and the notion of division of power in the Federal Government.

Now, I'm just pointing out very basic and understandable weaknesses in the case. My take on this, while being objectively true, could be one the Federal Government does not share. In fact, I would not be surprised in the slightest if they found him guilty. My opinion on these issues don't matter and it seems the FBI and Justice Department want to nail President Trump to the wall, seeing as they've been attempting to do so since 2015. I could go into the abuse of power, the double standard, etc. But there is no need. The case is horseshit to begin with. At the end of the day, I suppose we just disagree. I think democratically elected leaders should have authority on the classification of documents and disclosing the information to the people. You believe FBI and CIA spooks should have the ultimate say in what the American people are informed about, and they should be able to prevent any democratically elected official from disclosing any information to the public that they find problematic. You're a deep state stooge.


There is a PROCESS for declassification, he cant just do it by thinking it.
Member
Posts: 12,201
Joined: Feb 13 2010
Gold: 14.88
Jun 13 2023 08:51pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Jun 13 2023 07:43pm)
There is a PROCESS for declassification, he cant just do it by thinking it.


What's the process? Who's approval is required? Instituting a process undermines his authority. He is granted this vast authority by design, and it ought not be restricted by bureaucratic nonsense. He has unilateral authority, it is done at his sole discretion. To challenge his ability challenges the authority granted to him in the Constitution. We don't need a nation where the president has to beg the CIA, FBI, State Department or Pentagon for their approval to declassify material. If such a system existed, state actors could delay, restrict, and bog down his declassification ability. I don't like the idea of the head of the CIA determining what can be communicated to the American people (even though it is how we've lived for the past 70 years)

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jun 13 2023 07:38pm)
You keep going on about the ability to declassify. None of the charges turn on the president's ability to classify or declassify anything. Even if we accept that argument that Trump declassified everything with his mind he would still be in trouble. Hell, if he had gone through the process and got the classification marks removed, he would still be in trouble.


Why? Because some Pentagon or State Department ghoul got upset that he still had some documents? Because he wasn't keen on cooperating with a DoJ clearly out to get him? To bog a man down in the tedium of bureaucracy has been the fashion in which unelected official seek to undermine the viability of democratically elected leaders. Hell, they not only meddle with viability, after he was elected they intentionally lied to him in an effort to undermine his policy objectives.
Member
Posts: 27,048
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Gold: 14,569.69
Jun 13 2023 09:16pm
Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jun 13 2023 07:42pm)
People misspeaking and quotes taken out of context are nothing new to the criminal justice system.

It sucks because there's not a lot to actually discuss about it. I think that's why people talk about the double standard and political machinations, since the case itself is pretty debatable. On one hand, he may not be guilty. On the other, his being President might make all the charges non-applicable. It's not a solid case on a variety of levels.

I personally think the more interesting conversation is how the FBI, CIA, DoJ and Pentagon are so undeniably in cahoots to take him down. It truly has been a scenario of "There's the man, now find the crime" since day one. I'm shocked after seven years this is all they have. He's a lot cleaner than I would have believed when I voted for him in 2016.


Nope. He could avoided this whole thing multiple times. It’s his fault and he cannot do things via Jedi mind tricks. Cope harder
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Jun 13 2023 09:37pm
Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jun 13 2023 09:51pm)
Why? Because some Pentagon or State Department ghoul got upset that he still had some documents? Because he wasn't keen on cooperating with a DoJ clearly out to get him? To bog a man down in the tedium of bureaucracy has been the fashion in which unelected official seek to undermine the viability of democratically elected leaders. Hell, they not only meddle with viability, after he was elected they intentionally lied to him in an effort to undermine his policy objectives.


Because even if he had totally declassified them you still aren't allowed to be in possession of information about national security you aren't allowed to have access to, and you aren't allowed to retain documents you don't lawfully own, and you aren't allowed to obstruct an investigation or the process of finding those documents.

This really isn't hard to understand lol


and here's the kicker, if Trump can declassify them by just thinking about it, Biden can reclassify them by thinking about it the second he gets in office. So there is no leg to stand on regarding those documents. If they have all the classification markings and the current president thinks they're classified.... then you can do the math.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jun 13 2023 09:38pm
Member
Posts: 39,561
Joined: Mar 12 2003
Gold: 2,965.00
Jun 13 2023 09:49pm
Member
Posts: 4,147
Joined: Jun 30 2022
Gold: 6.42
Warn: 10%
Jun 13 2023 09:51pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jun 14 2023 12:37am)
Because even if he had totally declassified them you still aren't allowed to be in possession of information about national security you aren't allowed to have access to, and you aren't allowed to retain documents you don't lawfully own, and you aren't allowed to obstruct an investigation or the process of finding those documents.

This really isn't hard to understand lol


and here's the kicker, if Trump can declassify them by just thinking about it, Biden can reclassify them by thinking about it the second he gets in office. So there is no leg to stand on regarding those documents. If they have all the classification markings and the current president thinks they're classified.... then you can do the math.


How do those boots taste?

Weird how the left in the US is becoming increasingly fascist after their whole "bash the fash" phase :rofl:
Member
Posts: 9,899
Joined: May 7 2006
Gold: 550.00
Jun 13 2023 09:54pm
Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ Jun 13 2023 07:42pm)
People misspeaking and quotes taken out of context are nothing new to the criminal justice system.

It sucks because there's not a lot to actually discuss about it. I think that's why people talk about the double standard and political machinations, since the case itself is pretty debatable. On one hand, he may not be guilty. On the other, his being President might make all the charges non-applicable. It's not a solid case on a variety of levels.

I personally think the more interesting conversation is how the FBI, CIA, DoJ and Pentagon are so undeniably in cahoots to take him down. It truly has been a scenario of "There's the man, now find the crime" since day one. I'm shocked after seven years this is all they have. He's a lot cleaner than I would have believed when I voted for him in 2016.


He's welcome to argue its a misquote but, seems pretty clear in context.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1383940414261Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll