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May 26 2019 06:02pm
Quote (ampoo @ 27 May 2019 00:48)
"ridiculous outright propaganda talking points"

are you living under a rock? already forgot about "germany you piece of shit" claudia roth? among other open germany haters like fischer, özdemir etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMiCkpxjyr8

so denying the existence of "german people" is not anti german?
and i just drop this infamous quote from the same guy in german: „Vaterlandsliebe fand ich stets zum Kotzen. Ich wußte mit Deutschland nichts anzufangen und weiß es bis heute nicht.“
the greens want to abolish our budget sovereignty and promote the united states of europe

how much more anti german can you possibly be?
you call it propaganda, i suggest you actually stop being a lazy smartass,because its in their fucking program
says it all really, you try to dismiss my arguments despite them not even coming from me

you completely dodged the point about the complete incompetence of that party and of course the regular climate denial accusations despite my remark that this is not what this is about

the cdu record is not terrible by itself, they have been investing hundreds of billions (in a stupid way of course) into renewable energy with borderline socialist measures
thats its still not good enough proves my point, the way we do it will NEVER work
not to mention that the cdu policy has been heavily influenced by the green party in a pathetic attempt to get votes

so we already have a "green light" policy and look how ridiculous the results are....is more of that going to help? i am sorry for those who believe that
to be fair, their task has been impossible so i wont blame them for that

and since you marked my comment about the deindustrialization, are you really that ignorant to ignore the fact that their policy will lead to just that?
you cant run a nation like germany with that energy policy without destroying our industry, its already suffering big time and the power supply has dodged collapse just barely several times by now

we live in a country where the BASF ludwigshafen complex alone needs as much electricity as the entire state of denmark
still waiting for a argument how the moronic greens plan to provide that 24/7 365 days a year without problems (well because they cant)

please tell me where exactly the propaganda is? where?

p.s: i know you will reply with some quote from gauland or höcke.....not related so spare me
answer directly to that point


taking a stance against jingoism isn't the same as being against german people.
and it's the pinnacle of hypocrisy to nitpick some of the statements or policy proposals (btw, there are several expert studies that confirm that what people are proposing and fossil fuel stooges dismiss as climate change 'alarmism' or 'panic' is not even going far enough - and also studies that suggest renewable energy could very well be brought to a point where most of our demand will be covered in a reasonable time - but i'm not surprised you're not very knowledgable in that regard) when you support a party where the outright DENIAL of manmade climate change is extremely prevalent. the nerves on you... unbelievable.

btw, the 'volksverräter' thumbnail reminds me of the post you dodged:

Quote (fender)
amuse me, how DO you think i define it? and even more interestingly, why are you trying so hard to deny it then? terms like 'lügenpresse', 'volksverräter', 'journaille' were popularised by nazi propaganda and are now strongly linked to those times. they were resurrected and are widely used by the afd and its supporters again. same thing about the party's effort to give the term 'völkisch' a positive connotation again - do all those things not fall under 'nazi vocabulary' by your definition? next you wanna tell me that 'herrenrasse' isn't a nazi term, and suggesting to kill political opposition in gas chambers (as you did in the german subforum) also has nothing to do with nazis - just an innocent 'joke' without any political or historical meaning, right?

inb4 'all those terms existed before, so i can just ignore the fact they were major cornerstones of nazi propaganda and ideology, nowadays inseparably linked with that time - but technically the nazis didn't invent them, so it can't be 'nazi vocabulary'. i am very smart.'


and that's just the tip of the iceberg, just the most obvious and demonstrable examples - beneath that lies a mountain of almost deafening dog whistles, bigoted and racist comments (the n-word and similar slurs - yes, even by people at the very top of the party, like gauland), their repeated efforts to unashamedly marginalise nazi crimes and their coordinated campaign to dehumanise ("gesinde", "schmarotzer", "parasiten"...) those they don't consider german enough.

it's so incredibly dishonest and spineless of you to only fully embrace that when you know that the majority of people reading it share your views (typical brownshirt mentality). on pard you're desperately trying to misinform foreign readers with intellectually questionable gotchas ('oh look, i found one example where that stupid c*nt claudia roth tried to call us out for a term that she herself once used in a different context - now every accusation of nazi terminology is invalid - so clever.'), hoping that it somehow distracts from the open and unashamed use of actual nazi terms and symbolism (hitler salutes are reportedly also not too uncommon amongst lower rank afd members and supporters), as well as the unmistakable dogwhistles...


seriously, the whole 'a transition to renewable energy would ruin and deindustrialise the whole nation' narrative is pure fearmongering and propaganda, based on literally ZERO evidence. how gullible do you have to be to uncritically accept such moronic statements?!

This post was edited by fender on May 26 2019 06:12pm
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May 26 2019 06:26pm
Quote (fender @ 27 May 2019 01:45)
i was hoping you weren't going to insist on that 'point' because it's such an obvious logic fail, but ok, here we go:
there is a multitude of reasons that can and does explain the difference of any nation's green party success compared to their european result, from national conversations being dominated by other topics (and you don't have to introduce some nefarious press bias to explain that - btw, what does 'the media' get in return for their evil pushing of the green agenda?) to structural differences (climate change being addressed sufficiently by other parties for example, or green parties having literally no tradition or even representation to speak of in some member states) - your conclusion that the only difference is media representation is outright false, and your reasoning simply lacks causality. it honestly is a complete mess of an argument to make, seriously...


lol? I said that the difference in media treatment is the leading factor explaining the "excess success" of the German Greens compared to their European counterparts. I never said that there is a single reason which explains all the difference, I said the media treatment explains the lion's share.
and as I already explained: no, climate change is not "sufficiently addressed by other parties" anywhere in Europe. furthermore, the Greens do have a longstanding tradition in places like Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Austria, even the UK.

and in all those north-western European countries (with the exception of Sweden, funnily enough), the Greens did gain votes compared to the last EP election. so the increased salience of the climate change topic did show its effect in those places, and resulted in gains for the Greens. nonetheless, neither their vote share nor their gains were nearly as big as those of the German Greens.






Quote
it might be disappointing considering previous gains, but if you consider the strache scandal and the fact that you still gained, despite the all powerful media working against you, it directly contradicts your narrative that the gains of the greens are purely media driven. you can't have it both ways...

why would the Strache scandal in Austria have disastrous effects on the German AfD when it didnt even hurt the Austrian FPÖ, which was in the epicenter of this scandal, too much?

The Strache scandal cost the AfD at most 1%, probably less. And once again you dont read properly: the AfD made gains compared to 2014, but they lost compared to the last federal election in Germany. simply put, for the AfD in particular, the results from the pre-refugee-crisis era are just irrelevant.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 26 2019 06:35pm
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May 26 2019 06:44pm
Quote (fender @ 27 May 2019 02:02)
seriously, the whole 'a transition to renewable energy would ruin and deindustrialise the whole nation' narrative is pure fearmongering and propaganda, based on literally ZERO evidence. how gullible do you have to be to uncritically accept such moronic statements?!


what the German Greens are talking about is transitioning to net zero CO2 emissions while also abandoning nuclear power.

explain to me how it is physically supposed to be possible to supply the power consumption of a country like germany if there are several cloudy and windless days in a row without coal, gas or nuclear power.
it will never be possible to come up with storage capacities for renewable energy which are sufficient to make it through more than 1 or 2 such days. it's outright impossible! (unless humanity achieves a huge breakthrough with fusion technology, in which case all our energy problems would be solved in one fell swoop anway.)

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 26 2019 06:44pm
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May 26 2019 06:56pm
Quote (fender @ 27 May 2019 02:02)
taking a stance against jingoism isn't the same as being against german people.
and it's the pinnacle of hypocrisy to nitpick some of the statements or policy proposals (btw, there are several expert studies that confirm that what people are proposing and fossil fuel stooges dismiss as climate change 'alarmism' or 'panic' is not even going far enough - and also studies that suggest renewable energy could very well be brought to a point where most of our demand will be covered in a reasonable time - but i'm not surprised you're not very knowledgable in that regard) when you support a party where the outright DENIAL of manmade climate change is extremely prevalent. the nerves on you... unbelievable.

btw, the 'volksverräter' thumbnail reminds me of the post you dodged:


seriously, the whole 'a transition to renewable energy would ruin and deindustrialise the whole nation' narrative is pure fearmongering and propaganda, based on literally ZERO evidence. how gullible do you have to be to uncritically accept such moronic statements?!


you said that already, like broken record so i suggest you make an actual argument
is that so hard?

again, how to run an industrial with a power supply that you cant depend on?

its called physics, there is no evidence that renewables can provide our current demands, period
what are you going to do on a cold and dark january day? you dodged literally any objective argument again

you and your fellow green party lobbyists have to provide the proof here, not the other way around, because the just in time production is working all over the world
unrealistic dreams wont work

i think i have told you a hundred times that i do not outright deny anything, you ridiculous fearmonger and neither does the party i support

but hey, panic about a theory by computer models is fine, complaining about migrant crime is fearmongering
welcome to the fender world

its almost cute how you downplay the greens hatred against this state and its people despite the proof that you are well aware of, just found another one where the top candidate "ska" keller (cant even use her real name rofl) poses with antifa terrorists for pictures in parliament
oops
but its only fitting as you are also a creature driven by this hatred

since you love to talk about nazis, you do remind me of those who blindly followed the führer into the ultimate disaster
they also denied the concept of freescience, basic logic and would hide behind the "you prove me wrong" facade, while their whole thinking relied on utterly retarded claims that are simply made up
impossible to argue with such people

obviously, the result wont be a world war this time, but the thinking is the same and the likes of you will someday look at what they have done and think "how the fuck did that happen, i had no idea"
well, you should have

or, if you have no clue, just be quiet

all being said, i am starting to support the idea of enforcing every single demand of the greens and their fridays for future screamers
the modern world they take for granted will disappear and they are the first to backpedal

Quote (Black XistenZ @ 27 May 2019 02:44)
what the German Greens are talking about is transitioning to net zero CO2 emissions while also abandoning nuclear power.

explain to me how it is physically supposed to be possible to supply the power consumption of a country like germany if there are several cloudy and windless days in a row without coal, gas or nuclear power.
it will never be possible to come up with storage capacities for renewable energy which are sufficient to make it through more than 1 or 2 such days. it's outright impossible! (unless humanity achieves a huge breakthrough with fusion technology, in which case all our energy problems would be solved in one fell swoop anway.)


correct, but dont expect fender to answer

he loves to talk about science, but is still mad that he didnt even understand 8th grade physics

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May 26 2019 07:25pm
aaaand another dodge regarding the nazis and science deniers in the party you support. how unexpected...

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/afd-rechtspopulisten-klimawandel-1.4341697

of course the side that has the overwhelming majority of EXPERTS on that topic on their side is the one that has the burden of proof, not the sceptics and appeasers that make outright ridiculous claims without ANY scientific backing. every day is opposite day in poo land...
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May 26 2019 07:51pm
http://energywatchgroup.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/EWG-LUT_Full-Study_Energy-Transition-Europe.pdf

a major factor all the 'it's just not feasible, it will cost too much, the technology isn't there yet, we still have time, a policy change will de-industrialise the whole nation' morons always ignore are the incredible costs of climate change, especially if we just continue your baby steps of convenience and 'healthy scepticism' course: not just disaster relief, but poor harvests, water shortages, and something our afd supporters should be especially concerned about: migration caused by climate related issues. those things will (and already do) cost us more than even the darkest fossil fuel funded predictions of the energy transition pricetag - annually!
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May 26 2019 09:12pm
Quote (fender @ 27 May 2019 03:51)
http://energywatchgroup.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/EWG-LUT_Full-Study_Energy-Transition-Europe.pdf

a major factor all the 'it's just not feasible, it will cost too much, the technology isn't there yet, we still have time, a policy change will de-industrialise the whole nation' morons always ignore are the incredible costs of climate change, especially if we just continue your baby steps of convenience and 'healthy scepticism' course: not just disaster relief, but poor harvests, water shortages, and something our afd supporters should be especially concerned about: migration caused by climate related issues. those things will (and already do) cost us more than even the darkest fossil fuel funded predictions of the energy transition pricetag - annually!


all fine and well.
but nothing of this answers the fundamental question: how do you ensure power supply on a cloudy windless day if you can neither use coal, gas nor nuclear power?

the reality is that a concerted effort to mitigate climate change is indeed necessary. unfortunately, it is also a reality that net zero carbon emissions are a pipe dream, no industrialized country will reach this goal, and sure as hell not one which gave up nuclear power on top of fossils.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 26 2019 09:13pm
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May 27 2019 12:43am
energy watch group

thats as good and independent when it comes to renewable energy as breitbart is about migration

absolutely ridiculous, how the fuck do you expect do be taken seriously fenderp :lol:

propaganda victim who doesnt even know what an electric current is tries the big talk here :lol:

complain about fossil fuel lobby financed fake news---> counter with a "study" from the renewable energy lobby

nice try mister antifa/indymedia
what a waste of time

what a climate change (btw, climate always changes and how much of that is our fault is not determined yet despite your retarded propaganda) might cost us is pure conjecture, the insane cost of an unreliable energy supply is a fact

still dodged the question by the way...as always

but i guess it will take what remains of our energy intensive industry to close until the realisation comes.....

as i said, have it your way
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May 27 2019 01:39am
Quote (ampoo @ 27 May 2019 07:43)
energy watch group

thats as good and independent when it comes to renewable energy as breitbart is about migration

absolutely ridiculous, how the fuck do you expect do be taken seriously fenderp :lol:

propaganda victim who doesnt even know what an electric current is tries the big talk here :lol:

complain about fossil fuel lobby financed fake news---> counter with a "study" from the renewable energy lobby

nice try mister antifa/indymedia
what a waste of time

what a climate change (btw, climate always changes and how much of that is our fault is not determined yet despite your retarded propaganda) might cost us is pure conjecture, the insane cost of an unreliable energy supply is a fact

still dodged the question by the way...as always

but i guess it will take what remains of our energy intensive industry to close until the realisation comes.....

as i said, have it your way


hiding behind vague commonplaces to dodge the FACT that human activity is the major cause for the rapid climate change we're experiencing might seem like a 'smart move' to you, but it just reveals your dishonesty and lack of evidence to support your stance. and no, the overwhelming scientific consensus by experts on this issue is not "propaganda" - the fossil fuel funded studies to give science deniers like yourself a flimsy excuse to pretend like it's somehow 'controversial' or 'not settled' is the actual propaganda in this conversation.

btw, nice dodge again that your little nazi party (for some reason you just don't want to address their dog whistling with nazi language, their attempts to marginalise nazi crimes, and their use of racial slurs - hm, i wonder why that is) is full of climate change 'sceptics' and does NOT acknowledge man made climate change.

all you can do is spew your simplistic and idiotic talking points, while trying to dismiss studies without even looking into their methology or reading them, making baseless conspiratorial claims. why don't YOU provide a study to support your 'argument'? oh right, because there is none, because the facts and the science are simply not on your side...
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May 27 2019 02:30am
Quote (fender @ 27 May 2019 09:39)
hiding behind vague commonplaces to dodge the FACT that human activity is the major cause for the rapid climate change we're experiencing might seem like a 'smart move' to you, but it just reveals your dishonesty and lack of evidence to support your stance. and no, the overwhelming scientific consensus by experts on this issue is not "propaganda" - the fossil fuel funded studies to give science deniers like yourself a flimsy excuse to pretend like it's somehow 'controversial' or 'not settled' is the actual propaganda in this conversation.

btw, nice dodge again that your little nazi party (for some reason you just don't want to address their dog whistling with nazi language, their attempts to marginalise nazi crimes, and their use of racial slurs - hm, i wonder why that is) is full of climate change 'sceptics' and does NOT acknowledge man made climate change.

all you can do is spew your simplistic and idiotic talking points, while trying to dismiss studies without even looking into their methology or reading them, making baseless conspiratorial claims. why don't YOU provide a study to support your 'argument'? oh right, because there is none, because the facts and the science are simply not on your side...


you are the worst anti science guy in this entire forum, a consensus is not a fact

my main criticism is that large parts of researchers on that subject have abandoned critical thinking, they take any result as proof for their theory and politics and uninformed people with no opinion on their own like are not helping
its about lobbying and securing tax money instead of enlightenment

critical thinking is the foundation of science, however you climate fanatics dont allow thinking at all
just suggest that there are problems with these computer models and you will face public execution in the media
disagree even the slightest with the mainstream and you will get utterly excluded from any kind of discussion

that is not science, thats catholic church pre reformation style

your conspiracy theories are getting boring, as i said, countering lobbyism with lobbyism is not an argument

you do me wrong by the way, i did read the first pages of that "study" at breakfast and it does not address the problem

they take it for granted, renewables will do this and do that period

they talk about how renewables are cheaper than conventional power, then why do we have the ridiculous prices we have right now?
they take storage technology for granted that doesnt even exist
in a country like germany solar energy is not suited to be a main source of supply

my question still stands

since its impossible to store the energy we constantly need....how do YOU propose to supply our industry?
how will an aluminium producing plant for example get the several hundred thousand amperage they need 24/7 on a cold and dark january day?

you do realise that we have days where the production from wind and solar power is almost zero?
how do you even generate the massive energy needed to build shit loads of solar panels if you meet the demands of the greens?
but hey, maybe sand will melt into panels if we believe enough
jesus turned water into wine after all

you repeat phrases like ""experts" say...." like a trained monkey, how about some thinking of your own

sorry if thats too much
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