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#381
Sep 30 2020 11:26am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 30 2020 11:34am)
I don't know much about the proud boys either, which is why I said let's find out together.

The Unite the Right rally was technically about the Robert E. Lee statue, but confederate symbolism is heavily featured in American white supremacy, so those things aren't mutually exclusive. There may have been some portion of people there not about white supremacy, but you can say that about any gathering for any reason.

If the Proud Boys are fine associating with Kessler, and Kessler organized a white supremacist rally in 2017 where people were killed, it's not really surprising or necessarily misinformation to associate the Proud Boys with white supremacy. The media doesn't exactly have time to get nuanced about every issue, and right-wing groups will tend to downplay their unpopular positions so they don't scare away membership.


Planned Parenthood was founded by a racist and eugenicist. Thats a lot more direct than saying they once associated with a racist guy once at a rally not directly about racism. Is it fair to call Planned Parenthood a racist, eugenicist group? PP wears its politics on its sleeves, we know exactly what they stand for, and what they dont tolerate. They arent out to cull black and retards from the gene pool.

The Proud Boys are outspoken about their beliefs and have a pretty explicit code that disavows racism and disassociates with white supremacists and shuns them. They're a multiracial, diverse group- often more diverse than the antifa whitebread kids they brawl with in portland.

even the ADL and SPLC, renowned for their exaggerations and distortions to serve an agenda, never tried to label them white supremacists. Its just too much cognitive dissonance for readers to be told the proud boys are white supremacists, then see pictures of black, white, asian, latino and pacific islander proud boys wearing t-shirts saying "I hate the left n racism"
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#382
Sep 30 2020 11:34am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 30 2020 01:23pm)
The bold is just a lie. You just told a lie I explicitely refuted in the last post of our last conversation. When you have made it clear youre a bold face liar why should I continue?


Or, it was you who lied. If you don't think he's a racist, why are you so determined to misread his statement to interpret him as one?
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#383
Sep 30 2020 11:36am
Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 30 2020 12:26pm)
Planned Parenthood was founded by a racist and eugenicist. Thats a lot more direct than saying they once associated with a racist guy once at a rally not directly about racism. Is it fair to call Planned Parenthood a racist, eugenicist group? PP wears its politics on its sleeves, we know exactly what they stand for, and what they dont tolerate. They arent out to cull black and retards from the gene pool.

The Proud Boys are outspoken about their beliefs and have a pretty explicit code that disavows racism and disassociates with white supremacists and shuns them. They're a multiracial, diverse group- often more diverse than the antifa whitebread kids they brawl with in portland.

even the ADL and SPLC, renowned for their exaggerations and distortions to serve an agenda, never tried to label them white supremacists. Its just too much cognitive dissonance for readers to be told the proud boys are white supremacists, then see pictures of black, white, asian, latino and pacific islander proud boys wearing t-shirts saying "I hate the left n racism"


Planned Parenthood was founded almost 100 years ago. The Proud Boys 4 years ago, and the association I'm discussing is 3 or less years ago. Garbage comparison is garbage.

If they shun white supremacists, have they kicked Kessler out? Can you give me examples of them removing white supremacists from their groups? I showed an example of them associating with an obvious and dangerous white supremacist. Balls in your court to show that was an isolated incident and not representative of the group.
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#384
Sep 30 2020 11:37am
Quote (ReturnFormer @ Sep 30 2020 12:34pm)
Or, it was you who lied. If you don't think he's a racist, why are you so determined to misread his statement to interpret him as one?


I explained my position.

Trump doesn't have convictions one way or the other, and so he's more than happy to play to white supremacists if he thinks it will help him, even if he doesn't have the convictions necessary to be racist or white supremacist himself.

Now it's your turn to admit you made a mistake and apologize for being a bold face liar.
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#385
Sep 30 2020 11:39am
So, I think my biggest question is how SNL does their spoof? I don't even think it would be funny...

EDIT: Also, regarding the Proud Boys...why not go by what the FBI says about them? "An extremist group with ties to white nationalism."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/19/proud-boys-fbi-classification-extremist-group-white-nationalism-report?CMP=share_btn_tw

This post was edited by thundercock on Sep 30 2020 11:41am
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#386
Sep 30 2020 11:46am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 30 2020 12:36pm)
Planned Parenthood was founded almost 100 years ago. The Proud Boys 4 years ago, and the association I'm discussing is 3 or less years ago. Garbage comparison is garbage.

If they shun white supremacists, have they kicked Kessler out? Can you give me examples of them removing white supremacists from their groups? I showed an example of them associating with an obvious and dangerous white supremacist. Balls in your court to show that was an isolated incident and not representative of the group.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/gavin-mcinnes-path-to-the-far-rightfrontier/article36024918/
Quote
McInnes has been spending a lot of time like this lately, trying to ensure he isn't yoked to other yokels: He had formally disavowed the Charlottesville rally back in June, but critics noted its chief organizer, Jason Kessler, had once been a member of the Proud Boys. (McInnes said he kicked Kessler out once his racist politics became apparent.)


here's mcinnes explaining their views himself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPpb-nfQW_8
and their code;

Quote
Proud Boys‘ values center on the following tenets:

Minimal Government
Maximum Freedom
Anti-Political Correctness
Anti-Drug War
Closed Borders
Anti-Racial Guilt
Anti-Racism
Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment)
Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment)
Glorifying the Entrepreneur
Venerating the Housewife
Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism

Though these are our central tenets, all that is required to become a Proud Boy is that a man declare he is “a Western chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world.” We do not discriminate based upon race or sexual orientation/preference. We are not an “ism”, “ist”, or “phobic” that fits the Left’s narrative. We truly believe that the West Is The Best and welcome those who believe in the same tenets as us. We have an international reach, with members spanning the globe. If you have any questions or would like get in contact with your local chapter, feel free to contact us directly via our staff page. This, after all, the one and only Proud Boy Magazine. For Proud Boys, by Proud Boys. UHURU!

If you’re interested here are some additional articles and video clips to shed some more light on our movement. In fact, here are a few Gavin has written for this website.

We Are Not Alt-Right


This post was edited by Goomshill on Sep 30 2020 11:48am
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#387
Sep 30 2020 11:47am
Quote (thundercock @ Sep 30 2020 12:39pm)
So, I think my biggest question is how SNL does their spoof? I don't even think it would be funny...

EDIT: Also, regarding the Proud Boys...why not go by what the FBI says about them? "An extremist group with ties to white nationalism."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/19/proud-boys-fbi-classification-extremist-group-white-nationalism-report?CMP=share_btn_tw


That seems pretty accurate.

Their founder, Gavin McInnes is definitely a white supremacist, they've associated with white supremacists like Kessler. So "ties to" is probably the minimum we should go with.

If in 2-10 years they've expelled all white supremacists and actively disavowed them, we can revise that.

Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 30 2020 12:46pm)
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/gavin-mcinnes-path-to-the-far-rightfrontier/article36024918/


That's good.

McInnes has a lot of work to do to get the white supremacist stuff on his hands though. He's said before that he thinks there's genetically based IQ disparities, that systemic racist doesn't exist, etc. etc.

Being an organization only 4 years old and having these things happen means they get tagged with white supremacy, and if they want to get rid of that they're gonna have to do work to get it out of their organization and prove they've done that. You don't just get to turn around one day and say "look, all fixed", it takes work.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Sep 30 2020 11:49am
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#388
Sep 30 2020 11:48am
Quote (thundercock @ Sep 30 2020 01:39pm)
So, I think my biggest question is how SNL does their spoof? I don't even think it would be funny...

EDIT: Also, regarding the Proud Boys...why not go by what the FBI says about them? "An extremist group with ties to white nationalism."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/19/proud-boys-fbi-classification-extremist-group-white-nationalism-report?CMP=share_btn_tw


Right, while Antifa is just an ideology not an organization. I have very limited knowledge on Proud Boys but if the FBI is basically handwaving away the synchronized rioting across many cities, under one flag, with the same qualms, then ill put very little stock in their definitions.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Sep 30 2020 11:48am
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#389
Sep 30 2020 11:51am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Sep 30 2020 12:48pm)
Right, while Antifa is just an ideology not an organization. I have very limited knowledge on Proud Boys but if the FBI is basically handwaving away the synchronized rioting across many cities, under one flag, with the same qualms, then ill put very little stock in their definitions.


Antifa is an ideology though. It stands for Anti-Fascism, and says we should get rid of fascism at all costs. Antifa doesn't have an organization behind them that I'm aware of beyond locals getting together and calling themselves Antifa. There's no repository of Antifa members, etc. etc.

Just to be clear, I think the label "alt-right" would also fall into this kind of category.
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#390
Sep 30 2020 11:52am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 30 2020 12:47pm)
McInnes has a lot of work to do to get the white supremacist stuff on his hands though. He's said before that he thinks there's genetically based IQ disparities, that systemic racist doesn't exist, etc. etc.


If thats your definition of white supremacy, then you've shifted the goalposts so far they're behind the kicker

Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 30 2020 12:51pm)
Antifa is an ideology though. It stands for Anti-Fascism, and says we should get rid of fascism at all costs. Antifa doesn't have an organization behind them that I'm aware of beyond locals getting together and calling themselves Antifa. There's no repository of Antifa members, etc. etc.

Just to be clear, I think the label "alt-right" would also fall into this kind of category.


How is that any different than saying "white supremacy is an ideology, not a group"?
There is no singular white supremacist organization. There are local white supremacists groups who get together, there's no repository of white supremacist members
There's plenty of Antifa groups, with varying levels of organization, some quite large.

This post was edited by Goomshill on Sep 30 2020 11:53am
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