d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Official Political Picture Thread, Continued
Prev1358359360361362951Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 38,137
Joined: May 28 2006
Gold: 0.00
Oct 27 2022 12:01pm




Member
Posts: 50,834
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Gold: 5,846.00
Oct 27 2022 12:50pm
Quote (HeLiCaL @ Oct 27 2022 01:01pm)


how many times has "brooklyndad_defiant" shown up on defiant l's?
Member
Posts: 54,145
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Oct 27 2022 01:36pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 27 Oct 2022 19:49)
I heard a term a year or two ago called "economism".

Basically it's using economic arguments as the end-all of political discussions from people who just aren't that well versed in economics. Similar to the edgy atheists who don't really know much about science talking about how evolution disproves god, except in this case it's right wingers saying "of course you can't raise the minimum wage, don't you know supply demand curves?"

Really it boils down to using first approximations, like supply/demand curves, assuming all markets are perfectly elastic, etc. to justify what are almost always right-wing arguments, and never acknowledging that the rules of the market are determined by us and a totally artificial playing field we've created.

Then when you point out that minimum wage increasing unemployment has been debunked for over 20 years, and that an influx of low skill labor actually leads to increased wages, it's just dismissed as "not following basic economics", even though it's pretty easy to understand the economic reason.

It appeals to normies who aren't necessarily right wing by giving "common sense and universally accepted laws of economics" as the argument to abuse immigrants so they stop coming, or never raise the minimum wage or expand the social safety net.

Do you have sources for the bolded claim?
This honestly sounds like a very rough simplification of its own.

Instinctively, an influx of low skill labor should grow the economy and increase profits, and thus lead to higher profits for the capital side and probably also higher wages for the professional-managerial class on top of the labor-side food chain. But it should also depress wages of domestic low skill workers; and it should lead to a spike in unemployment if the influx exceeds the domestic economy's demand for low skill labor. On the aggregate level, its effect on mean wages should be hard to gauge, the effect on median wages should clearly be negative, and it should drive up income inequality.



Likewise, the point about the minimum wage is definitely undercomplex the way you present it here. If the federal minimum wage was raised to $40/h, you can be damn sure that unemployment would surge. If the mimimum wage happens to sit far below the level the local labor market can sustain, then raising it will have no noteworthy impact on unemployment, lead to higher wages, more equality, less poverty and be good policy all around. Due to 40 years of offshoring and neoliberal policies, the lower end of the labor market is deeply underwater in large swaths of the industrialized world, so this case is more common. However, I still wouldn't be so sure that every small bumfuck town in rural America can sustain a $15 minimum wage. Meanwhile, even $15 is far too low in expensive places like NYC or San Francisco.



Simply put, while your criticism of these simplistic right-wing arguments based on "economism" is valid, it seems like you are yourself falling for fundamentally the same shortcomings in support of your left-wing arguments, just one or two intellectual tier above the dunces, but still far below the level of expertise and complexity needed for a true understanding of the subject. (And just for the record, I am myself also falling far short of that standard!)

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Oct 27 2022 01:43pm
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Oct 27 2022 02:44pm
The bolded point was literally part of the research for at last year's Nobel Prize in economics. The data on this subject has been in for over 30 years and has been validated 6 ways to sunday.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Oct 27 2022 02:45pm
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Oct 27 2022 02:47pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Oct 27 2022 02:36pm)
Do you have sources for the bolded claim?
This honestly sounds like a very rough simplification of its own.

Instinctively, an influx of low skill labor should grow the economy and increase profits, and thus lead to higher profits for the capital side and probably also higher wages for the professional-managerial class on top of the labor-side food chain. But it should also depress wages of domestic low skill workers; and it should lead to a spike in unemployment if the influx exceeds the domestic economy's demand for low skill labor. On the aggregate level, its effect on mean wages should be hard to gauge, the effect on median wages should clearly be negative, and it should drive up income inequality.



Likewise, the point about the minimum wage is definitely undercomplex the way you present it here. If the federal minimum wage was raised to $40/h, you can be damn sure that unemployment would surge. If the mimimum wage happens to sit far below the level the local labor market can sustain, then raising it will have no noteworthy impact on unemployment, lead to higher wages, more equality, less poverty and be good policy all around. Due to 40 years of offshoring and neoliberal policies, the lower end of the labor market is deeply underwater in large swaths of the industrialized world, so this case is more common. However, I still wouldn't be so sure that every small bumfuck town in rural America can sustain a $15 minimum wage. Meanwhile, even $15 is far too low in expensive places like NYC or San Francisco.



Simply put, while your criticism of these simplistic right-wing arguments based on "economism" is valid, it seems like you are yourself falling for fundamentally the same shortcomings in support of your left-wing arguments, just one or two intellectual tier above the dunces, but still far below the level of expertise and complexity needed for a true understanding of the subject. (And just for the record, I am myself also falling far short of that standard!)


Oh look he's nit picking to defend right wingers again instead of looking at the content.

The conclusions I referenced were part of the research included in last year's Nobel Prize in economics. The data has been in on these subjects for a very long time.

I never said raising the minimum wage to any ceiling is fine. You're just knit picking because you are yourself falling for the economism talking points in real time.
Member
Posts: 534
Joined: Nov 15 2014
Gold: 413.69
Oct 27 2022 05:55pm
but what weve learned the past couple of days is leftists continue to lie about what communism is lol.
Member
Posts: 23,970
Joined: Feb 28 2007
Gold: 35,554.14
Warn: 10%
Oct 27 2022 06:02pm
Quote (Kuggergug @ Oct 27 2022 06:55pm)
but what weve learned the past couple of days is leftists continue to lie about what communism is lol.


They lie about a lot more than that.
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Oct 27 2022 06:23pm
Member
Posts: 27,048
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Gold: 14,569.69
Oct 27 2022 07:17pm
Quote (Kuggergug @ Oct 27 2022 07:57am)
ROFL. you have no idea how inflation works. in inflation, all the numbers get bigger. profits are up all over the place for most sectors. wages are up all over the place, too. Panda Express is offering $30/hour here. the dollar has lost value. your attempt to single out the oil industry makes you look like an idiot.



I didn’t single it out. But there is a part of this inflation that is driven by profit gouging. Me “I hAvE no ideA How ifkaYION works
Member
Posts: 53,368
Joined: Sep 2 2004
Gold: 57.00
Oct 27 2022 07:21pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 27 Oct 2022 14:50)
how many times has "brooklyndad_defiant" shown up on defiant l's?

hes either an fbi or cia plant lol
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1358359360361362951Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll