The "mind" then, as you define it, has no place in any of my examples. All of the examples I have discussed deal with the "brain", as you say. The conscious mind has nothing to do with it.
There are a large number of ways in which a brain can be influenced (not by the mind) to misinterpret sensory input without the knowledge of the host. How do you consolidate that fact with your claim that the truth is what you perceive with your 5 senses?

Be more specific, I don't get what you mean... but I have to say again that with the "what if" and "what happens if" questions you will never reach an agreement.
Trust you senses, if you are not on drug like it should be all right

No drugs. There are a lot of different things that can cause sensory input mistakes, but even if there was just one that could cause all of your senses to malfunction (yes there are ways to do this) then you have no way of knowing whether or not your senses are giving you the "truth" or a lie.

This means that what you think you are experiencing as reality may actually be false (a la Matrix, which you quoted earlier). Before you can claim any sort of truth comes from your senses, you need to determine that your senses are inputting the correct responses (which I seriously doubt you can). This means that either you must accept defeat and admit that there is no way of knowing the truth, or admit that it is possible your senses are all being fooled and proceed with the assumption that they are, but the admission that you cannot rely on their input as truth because of the non-zero possibility of it being false.

Most philosophers accept the second because if it were true, nothing can be derived from philosophy anyways.

You must definitely read my posts again.
The matrix is "a prison for your MIND"... it is actually the illusion of reality you see through your mind.
Of course you can not trust your senses if interpreted through your mind (from inside the matrix^^).
The way of knowing the truth is just to get the mind out as I explained to you earlier. If you desire to do so, your mind will become rational (yeah sorry, but it is not rational untill you get on that path... you have accept you do not know the truth, physical life is balance, you are more than your mind...).
I am not going to repeat myself over and over, just read my posts again... or even better : just read the books I linked you, they explain this way better than myself with my current relatively low awareness of the truth/life/present

The Matrix (assuming we're referring to the example used by the movie of the same name) was not a prison for your "mind" as you define it, but a prison for your "brain". The Matrix produced a series of false sensory inputs to your "brain" and your "mind" was free to interpret them as it saw fit. That's the whole concept of the movie. If the "mind" was being controlled, there would be no difference in personality between anyone inside the Matrix because the reaction to sensory input would be controlled, not the sensory input itself.

An example of a controlled "mind" would be Mouse's introduction program that Neo and Morpheus walk through where Neo meets the Red Lady--all of the characters within that program are virtual constructs programmed to react to stimuli the same way (except for the Red Lady). A controlled mind would be the same type of thing--everyone would react in an identical manner to the input they are given.

The Matrix itself, however, had a variety of people who responded differently when introduced to the same situation. And it's supposed to be a parallel of reality, so if you know two people who react differently to something (know anybody that doesn't like chocolate?) that's not controlling the "mind" because the consciousness is still making its decision--that's controlling the stimuli that the mind is introduced to.

Some of our senses are so intertwined with the brain that they form a large part of our reality. Eti_fr is making the claim that our senses always work, but our perception of reality can be wrong. I'm saying that our reality is defined by our senses and it's impossible for us to know otherwise.

Pointing to our ability to gauge time, for example (my left ear heard something before my right ear, therefore the noise came from somewhere closer to my left). Eti might point out that actual time is not the same as what we perceive. However, our knowledge of time and how it works is based on our ability to sense it. If we couldn't tell time, it doesn't matter what the truth is, the same way colors don't matter to blind ants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's claiming to have found the so-called truth of knowing something without relying on his senses. That's, imo, a ridiculous claim to make considering he's not even aware of how many senses he's using to form a perception of reality.

You should have just said that, I'd have understood what you were getting at. We're making the same point.

And what he's claiming is that he is able to experience truth through his senses...and what I'm trying to tell him is that what he experiences through his senses is not always accurate.
/e
And therefore cannot be an absolute truth due to the possibility of his senses being wrong.

This post was edited by BardOfXiix on Dec 3 2012 04:52pm

Ya sorry lol. I was sleepy and drowsy from meds when I jumped back into this thread last night.

Well, here is how Morpheus explains the matrix to Neo :



The whole matrix is a "mind prison"
Every person living inside is a slave but do not know it (and would actually fight to stay a slave).
Only the people with a free mind (living outside the matrix) can see reality.

It is actually what happens in our society (see the vid I post on previous page).

An other movie explaining how our minds are decepting us is The Devil's Advocate, you should see it, this movie explains the mind pretty well.

It is all about the mind, all our problems come from there.
All the division in the world (politic, money, religions) comes from the mind.
Inside families people are divided by their thoughts... I am a witness of that fact.
If we all open our minds there will only be the truth remaining and no more division... this world would become a heaven.
It could take few generations, even though evolution is going faster than ever... it takes time to free our minds.
Speaking about time, this concept is relative sylvannos.
There is only NOW.
If your mind is closed, 1 hour will go on very fast.
If your mind is completely opened, you will live more in 1 hour than some one with a closed mind during his entire life.
What matters is not the years in your life, but the life in your years.
See my previous posts to understand what I mean with an opened mind...

Remember : you are more than your mind.
Check it for yoursef : what is it that is "hearing" to the thoughts produced by your mind ?
It is your spirit, the same spirit that is recieving life (the present moment, the eternal NOW) from your 5 senses... if your mind is opened enough.

He is using a different definition of mind than you are. He is using mind in the sense that it refers to our brain. In fact, prison is an excellent analogy.

In a jail cell, your sensory input is limited to your immediate surroundings--what you can see from your jail cell. Your perception of these inputs, however, is untouched. The same is true for the Matrix (and for all the other arguments I've made): your sensory input can be limited regardless of how little your conscious mind decides to analyze them.

And yes, only people outside the Matrix can experience reality. But the people INSIDE the Matrix are still receiving sensory input as though it was coming from their senses, and they assume it's reality. So we have two groups of people, both getting "sensory input" and only one group is really experiencing reality, while both groups believe that they are experiencing reality. And thus, if those living in the Matrix were to abandon their consciousness and focus only on the sensory input they are receiving, they would STILL come to the wrong conclusion about the truth!