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Oct 27 2023 08:05am
Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 27 2023 03:00pm)
just curious, what percent would you guess support hamas' attack on oct 7th?

10% of gaza? 30%? 80%?

it's a country of 18 year old blood thirsty radicalized people. im sure a few people saw the news and said "oh shit, we're in trouble when they retaliate", but im sure the VAST majority cheered. celebrated in the same streets that are now rubble.

i said it weeks ago, these people traded 1500 israelis for perhaps a million of their own. hamas is bad, but its the entire muslim world that supports hamas that is to blame. they're the ones who gave them martyr status. it's a calling from god to die in gaza from an israeli bomb. sounds great until you're holding a dead kid in your actual arms.


I dont know snipa, i think alot of them. i will google this. historically i see ~

Just 27 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.

still googling ofc. my own thought is that any attack on Israel (without looking at the specific's of this attack) would be supported by more then 50% of the adult population in Gaza. [ i am adjusting this % as i google, understand this is a personal view based on what i am reading and nothing else ].

2days ago result: What percentage of Palestinians support Hamas? Since then, the picture has grown murkier, with mostly narrow leads shifting back and forth. On average, polls in 2022 and 2023 give Fatah 35 percent support and 34 percent for Hamas.

The Metaphor I would use is Football. A football fan might he happy for his team to score a goal against a rival, but he cant play football, does not want to play football, does not have the inclination to play football, but is happy when his team scores. He may not like it that his team cheated or committed a foul to score but he is happy his team scored against the rival. That does not make him capable of culpable for his team scoring however.

This post was edited by ferdia on Oct 27 2023 08:21am
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Oct 27 2023 08:19am
Quote (ferdia @ Oct 27 2023 09:05am)
I dont know snipa, i think alot of them. i will google this.

historically i see ~

Just 27 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.

still googling ofc. my own thought is that it would be higher then 40%. [ i am adjusting this % as i google, understand this is a personal view based on what i am reading and nothing else ]

2days ago result:

What percentage of Palestinians support Hamas? Since then, the picture has grown murkier, with mostly narrow leads shifting back and forth. On average, polls in 2022 and 2023 give Fatah 35 percent support and 34 percent for Hamas.


Right, so a bit of political math here:

-hamas' stated goal is the complete destruction of israel
-high % of gaza population supports hamas (even previous to these attacks, now far more support hamas imo)

and the world says "#freepalestine, 2 state solution".

gaza right now is a 2 million person nation who by the above math wants israel destroyed, and they should be set free and given complete control of the country? gosh, i wonder what they'll do with that freedom. probably just enjoy freedom, right?

in 2022 israel fired 147 airstrikes into gaza, in response to 1100 hamas rockets fired into israel. and 49 gazans were killed in those air strikes. this was incredible restraint, they've given power and electricity, even work permits to enter israel. fast forward, 1500 israelis were killed. that's 30 years of the gazan 2022 death toll in a single day.

and still, israel is making a grave mistake. they just dont have a choice really. the best choice was to continue down the road to saudi peace. thats really what hamas would hate. but who has ever done that? who's ever been the victim of a terror attack and done nothing? france maybe? i cant think of any solid example.
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Oct 27 2023 08:22am
Quote (thesnipa @ Oct 27 2023 03:19pm)
Right, so a bit of political math here:

-hamas' stated goal is the complete destruction of israel
-high % of gaza population supports hamas (even previous to these attacks, now far more support hamas imo)

and the world says "#freepalestine, 2 state solution".

gaza right now is a 2 million person nation who by the above math wants israel destroyed, and they should be set free and given complete control of the country? gosh, i wonder what they'll do with that freedom. probably just enjoy freedom, right?

in 2022 israel fired 147 airstrikes into gaza, in response to 1100 hamas rockets fired into israel. and 49 gazans were killed in those air strikes. this was incredible restraint, they've given power and electricity, even work permits to enter israel. fast forward, 1500 israelis were killed. that's 30 years of the gazan 2022 death toll in a single day.

and still, israel is making a grave mistake. they just dont have a choice really. the best choice was to continue down the road to saudi peace. thats really what hamas would hate. but who has ever done that? who's ever been the victim of a terror attack and done nothing? france maybe? i cant think of any solid example.


i did an edit in my above, sec reading your post now.

Those numbers dont make sense to me, your saying only 1500 people in gaza were killed by israel over a 30 year period? Can you clarify ?
Also by all measures Israel is far more technologically advanced and comparing Israel's weapons to Hamas weapons (rockets/missiles), it heavily favors Israel. I mean, they are armed by the USA.

your not wrong re: Saudi Peace ofc. Hamas should reconsider their stated goal.
/afk re-familiarizing myself with the definition of terrorism.

Definitions of terrorism are usually complex and controversial, and, because of the inherent ferocity and violence of terrorism, the term in its popular usage has developed an intense stigma. It was first coined in the 1790s to refer to the terror used during the French Revolution by the revolutionaries against their opponents. The Jacobin party of Maximilien Robespierre carried out a Reign of Terror involving mass executions by the guillotine. Although terrorism in this usage implies an act of violence by a state against its domestic enemies, since the 20th century the term has been applied most frequently to violence aimed, either directly or indirectly, at governments in an effort to influence policy or topple an existing regime.

Terrorism is not legally defined in all jurisdictions; the statutes that do exist, however, generally share some common elements. Terrorism involves the use or threat of violence and seeks to create fear, not just within the direct victims but among a wide audience. The degree to which it relies on fear distinguishes terrorism from both conventional and guerrilla warfare. Although conventional military forces invariably engage in psychological warfare against the enemy, their principal means of victory is strength of arms. Similarly, guerrilla forces, which often rely on acts of terror and other forms of propaganda, aim at military victory and occasionally succeed (e.g., the Viet Cong in Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia). Terrorism proper is thus the calculated use of violence to generate fear, and thereby to achieve political goals, when direct military victory is not possible. This has led some social scientists to refer to guerrilla warfare as the “weapon of the weak” and terrorism as the “weapon of the weakest.”

In order to attract and maintain the publicity necessary to generate widespread fear, terrorists must engage in increasingly dramatic, violent, and high-profile attacks. These have included hijackings, hostage takings, kidnappings, mass shootings, car bombings, and, frequently, suicide bombings. Although apparently random, the victims and locations of terrorist attacks often are carefully selected for their shock value. Schools, shopping centres, bus and train stations, and restaurants and nightclubs have been targeted both because they attract large crowds and because they are places with which members of the civilian population are familiar and in which they feel at ease. The goal of terrorism generally is to destroy the public’s sense of security in the places most familiar to them. Major targets sometimes also include buildings or other locations that are important economic or political symbols, such as embassies or military installations. The hope of the terrorist is that the sense of terror these acts engender will induce the population to pressure political leaders toward a specific political end.

im just going to link this as there is alot here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/terrorism/Types-of-terrorism

This post was edited by ferdia on Oct 27 2023 08:34am
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Oct 27 2023 08:33am
Quote (ferdia @ 27 Oct 2023 16:56)
Is this a rhetorical question or do you want a serious answer ?

the brief version is the two state solution.


2 state solution is under the assumption that the conflict is about land

It is not

Furthermore we offer them on 1999 and on 2005
92-99% of everything they wanted they declined.

They yell allah huakbar or itbah al yahud when they massacred us.
God is great and kill the jews (translation(

They yell from the river to the sea which means they dont want us here.
So it either us or them.

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Oct 27 2023 08:34am
Quote (ferdia @ 27 Oct 2023 17:22)
i did an edit in my above, sec reading your post now.

Those numbers dont make sense to me, your saying only 1500 people in gaza were killed by israel over a 30 year period? Can you clarify ?

your not wrong re: Saudi Peace ofc. Hamas should reconsider their stated goal.
/afk re-familiarizing myself with the definition of terrorism.

Definitions of terrorism are usually complex and controversial, and, because of the inherent ferocity and violence of terrorism, the term in its popular usage has developed an intense stigma. It was first coined in the 1790s to refer to the terror used during the French Revolution by the revolutionaries against their opponents. The Jacobin party of Maximilien Robespierre carried out a Reign of Terror involving mass executions by the guillotine. Although terrorism in this usage implies an act of violence by a state against its domestic enemies, since the 20th century the term has been applied most frequently to violence aimed, either directly or indirectly, at governments in an effort to influence policy or topple an existing regime.

Terrorism is not legally defined in all jurisdictions; the statutes that do exist, however, generally share some common elements. Terrorism involves the use or threat of violence and seeks to create fear, not just within the direct victims but among a wide audience. The degree to which it relies on fear distinguishes terrorism from both conventional and guerrilla warfare. Although conventional military forces invariably engage in psychological warfare against the enemy, their principal means of victory is strength of arms. Similarly, guerrilla forces, which often rely on acts of terror and other forms of propaganda, aim at military victory and occasionally succeed (e.g., the Viet Cong in Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia). Terrorism proper is thus the calculated use of violence to generate fear, and thereby to achieve political goals, when direct military victory is not possible. This has led some social scientists to refer to guerrilla warfare as the “weapon of the weak” and terrorism as the “weapon of the weakest.”

In order to attract and maintain the publicity necessary to generate widespread fear, terrorists must engage in increasingly dramatic, violent, and high-profile attacks. These have included hijackings, hostage takings, kidnappings, mass shootings, car bombings, and, frequently, suicide bombings. Although apparently random, the victims and locations of terrorist attacks often are carefully selected for their shock value. Schools, shopping centres, bus and train stations, and restaurants and nightclubs have been targeted both because they attract large crowds and because they are places with which members of the civilian population are familiar and in which they feel at ease. The goal of terrorism generally is to destroy the public’s sense of security in the places most familiar to them. Major targets sometimes also include buildings or other locations that are important economic or political symbols, such as embassies or military installations. The hope of the terrorist is that the sense of terror these acts engender will induce the population to pressure political leaders toward a specific political end.

im just going to link this as there is alot here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/terrorism/Types-of-terrorism


The definition of terrorism is simple.
Targeting innocents inorder to achieve political goals
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Oct 27 2023 08:39am
Quote (Many_Names @ Oct 27 2023 03:34pm)
The definition of terrorism is simple.
Targeting innocents inorder to achieve political goals


I dont disagree with this

Quote (Many_Names @ Oct 27 2023 03:33pm)

So it either us or them.


There is no simple response to this.

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Oct 27 2023 08:45am
Quote (ferdia @ Oct 27 2023 09:22am)
i did an edit in my above, sec reading your post now.

Those numbers dont make sense to me, your saying only 1500 people in gaza were killed by israel over a 30 year period? Can you clarify ?
Also by all measures Israel is far more technologically advanced and comparing Israel's weapons to Hamas weapons (rockets/missiles), it heavily favors Israel. I mean, they are armed by the USA.

your not wrong re: Saudi Peace ofc. Hamas should reconsider their stated goal.
/afk re-familiarizing myself with the definition of terrorism.

Definitions of terrorism are usually complex and controversial, and, because of the inherent ferocity and violence of terrorism, the term in its popular usage has developed an intense stigma. It was first coined in the 1790s to refer to the terror used during the French Revolution by the revolutionaries against their opponents. The Jacobin party of Maximilien Robespierre carried out a Reign of Terror involving mass executions by the guillotine. Although terrorism in this usage implies an act of violence by a state against its domestic enemies, since the 20th century the term has been applied most frequently to violence aimed, either directly or indirectly, at governments in an effort to influence policy or topple an existing regime.

Terrorism is not legally defined in all jurisdictions; the statutes that do exist, however, generally share some common elements. Terrorism involves the use or threat of violence and seeks to create fear, not just within the direct victims but among a wide audience. The degree to which it relies on fear distinguishes terrorism from both conventional and guerrilla warfare. Although conventional military forces invariably engage in psychological warfare against the enemy, their principal means of victory is strength of arms. Similarly, guerrilla forces, which often rely on acts of terror and other forms of propaganda, aim at military victory and occasionally succeed (e.g., the Viet Cong in Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia). Terrorism proper is thus the calculated use of violence to generate fear, and thereby to achieve political goals, when direct military victory is not possible. This has led some social scientists to refer to guerrilla warfare as the “weapon of the weak” and terrorism as the “weapon of the weakest.”

In order to attract and maintain the publicity necessary to generate widespread fear, terrorists must engage in increasingly dramatic, violent, and high-profile attacks. These have included hijackings, hostage takings, kidnappings, mass shootings, car bombings, and, frequently, suicide bombings. Although apparently random, the victims and locations of terrorist attacks often are carefully selected for their shock value. Schools, shopping centres, bus and train stations, and restaurants and nightclubs have been targeted both because they attract large crowds and because they are places with which members of the civilian population are familiar and in which they feel at ease. The goal of terrorism generally is to destroy the public’s sense of security in the places most familiar to them. Major targets sometimes also include buildings or other locations that are important economic or political symbols, such as embassies or military installations. The hope of the terrorist is that the sense of terror these acts engender will induce the population to pressure political leaders toward a specific political end.

im just going to link this as there is alot here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/terrorism/Types-of-terrorism


no, im saying in 2022 49 gazans were killed by israel. 49 x 30 = 1470.

people watch news videos that say "thousands of people killed in gaza during air strikes this week" and they respond "this happens all the time in gaza, this is life in gaza". not really, 2022 saw only 49 people killed in 147 air strikes. that's unbelievable accuracy, and it's in response to 1100 rockets fired at Israel.

now, i used 2022 because it was the preceding year. there were of course worse years, 2021 was worse with 200 something killed (many in a single operation), and 2014 was bad too.

but my main gripe is the "this is just life in gaza" narrative, that's nonsense. Israel likely is killing as many people now with single bombs as they previously killed in a whole year with hundeds of bombs. this isnt the same old conflict, this is far worse by orders of magnitude.
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Oct 27 2023 09:17am
Quote (ferdia @ Oct 27 2023 05:57am)
But from a historical standpoint it is true here, can you agree with this statement ?


It's certainly not true at all.

Did the pacification of Germany & Japan just create more terrorists? How about the pacification of literally every other conquered nation throughout history?

It only breeds terrorists if you appease and continue to allow them to exist
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Oct 27 2023 09:18am
Quote (thesnipa @ 27 Oct 2023 17:45)
no, im saying in 2022 49 gazans were killed by israel. 49 x 30 = 1470.

people watch news videos that say "thousands of people killed in gaza during air strikes this week" and they respond "this happens all the time in gaza, this is life in gaza". not really, 2022 saw only 49 people killed in 147 air strikes. that's unbelievable accuracy, and it's in response to 1100 rockets fired at Israel.

now, i used 2022 because it was the preceding year. there were of course worse years, 2021 was worse with 200 something killed (many in a single operation), and 2014 was bad too.

but my main gripe is the "this is just life in gaza" narrative, that's nonsense. Israel likely is killing as many people now with single bombs as they previously killed in a whole year with hundeds of bombs. this isnt the same old conflict, this is far worse by orders of magnitude.


And they deserve every bomb they get on their head.

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Oct 27 2023 09:19am
Quote (El1te @ 27 Oct 2023 18:17)
It's certainly not true at all.

Did the pacification of Germany & Japan just create more terrorists? How about the pacification of literally every other conquered nation throughout history?

It only breeds terrorists if you appease and continue to allow them to exist


Exactly!
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