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Poll > Trump 2020 > Trump Vs. Pack O' Dems
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Apr 23 2020 02:07pm
my knowledge of boring civil engineering gets me more interested in this than probably 99.9999% of people, but the SCOTUS just ruled on a Clean Water Act case and set what's apparently a new definitive standard for jurisdiction
I'm not 100% sure whether this effectively settles the WOTUS definition and finally voids Rapanos, since its directly a question of pollutant regulation rather than state vs federal jurisdiction, but I assume the latter is inherent to the issue
haven't read my whole way through yet, but ;

https://apnews.com/fcee565b9fed5b001e9b3fce9ed00c24
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-260_5i36.pdf

the court ruled 6-3 rejecting both the 9th circuit's standard of "fairly traceable" pollutants and the EPA's strict interpretation of navigable waters, instead created a new standard of "functionally equivalent", which allows the EPA's regulations to be applied to pollution passing through waterways that are not navigable, as long as they are immediately passing into a navigable waterway. I think that this reasonably doesn't say the EPA controls state lands those waters pass through, and instead that its still exclusively the jurisdiction over the navigable waters that gives them authority to regulate point sources even if they are not immediate to the waters. So long as they fulfill that 'functionally equivalent' standard.

But man, while the conservative dissent wanted to side with the EPA, its remarkable that every single justice joined an opinion rebuking the 9th's "fairly traceable" standard. I think Alito's dissent excoriated it the best:

Quote
And the same is true for the test adopted by the Ninth Circuit. The Ninth Circuit held that a permit is required if a pollutant that reaches navigable waters is “fairly traceable,” but there is no real difference between “fairly traceable” and “originally from.” Unless a pollutant is “traceable” to a point source, how could that point source be required to get a permit? And the addition of the qualifier “fairly” does not seem to add anything. What would it mean for a pollutant to be “unfairly traceable” to a point source? Traceable only as a result of a method that is scientifically unsound? In that situation, why would a court consider the pollutant to be traceable to the source in question at all? So if a pollutant can be reliably determined to have originally come from a point source, a permit would appear to be required under the Ninth Circuit’s test.
Respondents, instead of defending the Ninth Circuit’s interpretation, argue that a discharge from a point source must be the “proximate cause” of a pollutant’s reaching navigable waters. Brief for Respondents 12. But as the Court concludes, ante, at 6, there is no basis for transplanting this concept from the law of torts into the Clean Water Act, and it is unclear what it would mean in that context. For these reasons, of the two possible interpretations of the statutory terms, the better is the interpretation that reads “from” to mean “directly from


Its the kind of logical take-down that should be happening at a middle school debate, not at the supreme court. How did the 9th circuit create such a flawed standard that you can just turn it on its head and point out that it has no falsifiable inverse. What would "unfairly" traceable even look like? Was the EPA supposed to tell polluters they could have a five minute headstart before they release the hounds? They never adequately explained this. Making the statute even *more* vague than it already is, doesn't solve anything. That's what got us into the mess


anyway I think a reduction ad absurdum demonstrates both why the 9th's usual bullshit and the conservative dissent both had impractical ideas. If you took the 'fairly traceable' standard, then the EPA could claim jurisdiction over every inch of the planet and a mile above and below the crust as pollution is dispersed in parts per trillion by normal environmental dynamics. If you took the EPA's strict navigable waters standard, then a chemical plant could dig a 20 foot long ditch to a river and call it an arroyo and dump their waste and say they're under state jurisdiction by technicality. And exploitative technicalities are dumb and anthithetical to the rule of law whichever way they go.

This post was edited by Goomshill on Apr 23 2020 02:13pm
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Apr 23 2020 02:32pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Apr 23 2020 12:55pm)
Typical anti-intellectual cowardice we have come to expect from fender.

Refuses to address the points and writes a fictional story about what I believe instead, including false claims of white nationalism.
Shameful.


irony level HIGH
ignores everything but your opinion.

LOL @ the Gavin troll.. smh Cam I won't ever listen to a word you say with somebody THAT biased as your "intellectual source"
LMAO

This post was edited by theCrossbones on Apr 23 2020 02:35pm
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Apr 23 2020 02:36pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ 23 Apr 2020 15:55)
Typical anti-intellectual cowardice we have come to expect from fender.

Refuses to address the points and writes a fictional story about what I believe instead, including false claims of white nationalism.
Shameful.

ironic given he (fender aka heinrich von goebbels) is the posterchild..poster grandchild or something like that of foolish bloodthirsty nationalism centered on race
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Apr 23 2020 02:37pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ Apr 23 2020 04:32pm)
irony level HIGH
ignores everything but your opinion.


I directly addressed and refuted the points you were making.
I also correctly identified the fact that his post was a dishonest fabrication that didn't address my points.

Where is this irony you are talking about? does it have its own shirt brand?
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Apr 23 2020 02:39pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Apr 23 2020 01:37pm)
I directly addressed and refuted the points you were making.
I also correctly identified the fact that his post was a dishonest fabrication that didn't address my points.

Where is this irony you are talking about? does it have its own shirt brand?


you THINK you have..
you have just stated your opinion..
NOTHING stated minus a Gavin YouTube video.
sorry..
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Apr 23 2020 02:49pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ Apr 23 2020 04:32pm)


LOL @ the Gavin troll.. smh Cam I won't ever listen to a word you say with somebody THAT biased as your "intellectual source"
LMAO


Yes, you have made it clear you are looking to avoid honest consideration, evidence and intellectual arguments.
Feelings and sjw-style 'my truth' over facts and evidence and logic.

Notice how you didnt address any of his points. Just "LMAO" and indicating that you want to run away and will refuse to listen to opposing points.

Someone having a bias doesn't mean they have nothing of value to say or that they are wrong.
As the literal founder of Proud Boys he knows the reasons for the shirt and explained the issue in detail. He has plenty of value to say on the content of the group.
Who do you think knows more about the proud boys? a deranged loser parroting GQ articles who refuses to substantiate his claims and refuses to look at evidence and consider opposing views points, or the founder?

Note: no one is asking you to blindly accept what a biased source says. Critically analyze the points and consider whether its true and reasonable or not.

Merely wearing a common shirt you dont like is not proof of white supremacism. That is common sense.
When that point goes out the window your posts fall apart.
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Apr 23 2020 03:00pm
Quick recap:


You: I could FLOOD the forum with proof that trump rallies and freedom protests are filled with "white power hate crazed lunatics!"
You: PB carry white power flags!

Me: Ok show some proof.

You: I have no interest in that

...

You: Wearing shirts makes them white supremacists!

Me: No that doesn't make any sense. Wearing a shirt is not white supremacy. Here is a video explaining the shirts.

You: LOL "Cam I won't ever listen to a word you say"

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Apr 23 2020 03:01pm
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Apr 23 2020 03:07pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Apr 23 2020 02:00pm)
Quick recap:


You: I could FLOOD the forum with proof that trump rallies and freedom protests are filled with "white power hate crazed lunatics!"
You: PB carry white power flags!

Me: Ok show some proof.

You: I have no interest in that

...

You: Wearing shirts makes them white supremacists!

Me: No that doesn't make any sense. Wearing a shirt is not white supremacy. Here is a video explaining the shirts.

You: LOL "Cam I won't ever listen to a word you say"



Way to manipulate past posts into a mess of bs. Even making up quotes I never said. Be gone troll
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Apr 23 2020 03:08pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ Apr 23 2020 04:07pm)
Way to manipulate past posts into a mess of bs. Even making up quotes I never said. Be gone troll


He constantly complains to me about how I mischaracterize his posts, even though I go above and beyond to make sure I don't, then he does things like this.

It's funny.
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Apr 23 2020 03:10pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ Apr 23 2020 05:07pm)
Way to manipulate past posts into a mess of bs. Even making up quotes I never said. Be gone troll


Yep asking you for proof, making valid points, and accurately summarizing events makes me a "troll" and absolves you of any need to substantiate and defend your claims and smears.

Just run away thinking you are right! Intellectual titan!
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