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Jan 24 2021 10:52am
Quote (bogie160 @ Jan 24 2021 09:47am)
Why do you think we're divided in the first place? There is a lot of middle ground on economic policy. But in terms of culture we live in radically different worlds.


I honestly don't think it's true that culturally Americans are in radically different worlds. Even on some of the most divisive cultural issues, whether it be Kaepernick kneeling, biological men/transgender women using the women's bathroom, I feel like there's plenty of room for civility and understanding. The accusations of bad faith... the refusal to accept the arguments from people at face value, is part of the reason these issues are so divisive. But anyway, in real life, these issues aren't all that relevant to the lives of 99% of people.

Also, I feel that the cultural right, Americans with conservative values, or whatever you want to call it, are focused squarely on some of these issues, while ignoring the broader trends in American life and society, at least as it relates to politics. I think Trump was toxic to the psyches of not just people who hated him, but people who loved him, and maybe even those who tolerated him for some notion of the greater good. He was a nasty man, he was a cruel man, he represented an epic untethering from the truth. I disagree with Biden on abortion, gay marriage, and transgender rights. But I don't think Biden makes his supporters nastier or crueler people. On divisive issues, he has positions, just like Trump did, just like everyone does. But he's not toxic to American politics and society. Trump was.

There also needs to be some honesty about how much of an influence the president, or any politician, can have on cultural issues. Right-wingers feel that Trump was elected to push back on the cultural left... and my question is, how did that work out?
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Jan 24 2021 11:01am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 24 2021 09:56am)
I dont think we disagree all that much on principle here, we just have a different perspective on the stuff he's passing.

I have to mildly disagree with the "pursuing one's agenda cannot be divisive" point though. Take Trump's travel ban - clearly a divisive policy, and the fact that he campaigned on stuff like that doesnt mitigate its divisiveness. In the same mould, Biden's policies cannot and should not be immune from criticism just because he campaigned on them. Particularly when his election win was 90% fueled by a rejection of his opponent and cannot possibly be construed as an embrace of his platform by the electorate, so that he can hardly claim a strong mandate.


That's not what I'm arguing. There are divisive issues in American politics... so any president will inevitably have positions on those issues. I don't believe Biden's message of unity and healing meant that he wasn't going to have positions on divisive issues. It's fine to criticize his policies, I just think it's a bad argument to say Biden was lying about unity because he is doing what he campaigned for.

I've said before, mandates are just fodder for political talk shows. What matters is what Biden has the power to do, and what he feels he should do. He won, plain and simple, with more than 50% of the vote(not that it matters). Enacting his agenda is what presidents are supposed to do.
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Jan 24 2021 11:09am
I don’t understand how republicans can possibly say Biden is a socialist or even a leftist. Biden immediately squashed the ideas of Medicare-for-all, defunding the police, and universal student loan forgiveness, which angered the far left.

Side note- wtf is Ted Cruz doing with Pittsburgh > Paris? First, his bumper sticker he made has a picture of Texas... okay. Second, Pittsburgh overwhelmingly voted for Biden and is at the forefront of green tech with their plans for entirely carbon neutral buildings by 2030. Did Cruz literally just pick Pittsburgh because it’s a rough and tough steel city or was it just that it’s a mild alliteration to use for “Pittsburgh > Paris”? What a nut.
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Jan 24 2021 11:10am
Quote (IceMage @ 24 Jan 2021 18:01)
That's not what I'm arguing. There are divisive issues in American politics... so any president will inevitably have positions on those issues. I don't believe Biden's message of unity and healing meant that he wasn't going to have positions on divisive issues. It's fine to criticize his policies, I just think it's a bad argument to say Biden was lying about unity because he is doing what he campaigned for.

Not necessarily lying about unity, but definitely lying about seeking compromise and common ground.

Quote
I've said before, mandates are just fodder for political talk shows. What matters is what Biden has the power to do, and what he feels he should do. He won, plain and simple, with more than 50% of the vote(not that it matters). Enacting his agenda is what presidents are supposed to do.

Agreed. But then the president shouldnt rhetorically charge up his agenda with high-minded but false promises of bipartisanship and healing.

I dont mind power politics, but combining it with a holier than you attitude rubs me the wrong way.

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Jan 24 2021 11:11am
Quote (AspenSniper @ Jan 24 2021 12:09pm)
I don’t understand how republicans can possibly say Biden is a socialist or even a leftist. Biden immediately squashed the ideas of Medicare-for-all, defunding the police, and universal student loan forgiveness, which angered the far left.

Side note- wtf is Ted Cruz doing with Pittsburgh > Paris? First, his bumper sticker he made has a picture of Texas... okay. Second, Pittsburgh overwhelmingly voted for Biden and is at the forefront of green tech with their plans for entirely carbon neutral buildings by 2030. Did Cruz literally just pick Pittsburgh because it’s a rough and tough steel city or was it just that it’s a mild alliteration to use for “Pittsburgh > Paris”? What a nut.


He stole the line from Trump.

Worth mentioning Cruz voted to object to PA's electors, disenfranchising millions of Pennsylvanians.
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Jan 24 2021 11:12am
Quote (IceMage @ Jan 24 2021 12:11pm)
He stole the line from Trump.

Worth mentioning Cruz voted to object to PA's electors, disenfranchising millions of Pennsylvanians.



Yeah something tells me Pittsburgh isn’t backing this play. I also think his line of “we are giving jobs to Europe and Paris instead of Americans?!” Is hilarious. Ah nuts we signed the PARIS accord. Fuck, that means we just gotta get French immigrants to do the work here.
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Jan 24 2021 11:53am
BIDEN HAS A ROLEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jan 24 2021 01:32pm
Quote (IceMage @ Jan 24 2021 08:52am)
I honestly don't think it's true that culturally Americans are in radically different worlds. Even on some of the most divisive cultural issues, whether it be Kaepernick kneeling, biological men/transgender women using the women's bathroom, I feel like there's plenty of room for civility and understanding. The accusations of bad faith... the refusal to accept the arguments from people at face value, is part of the reason these issues are so divisive. But anyway, in real life, these issues aren't all that relevant to the lives of 99% of people.

Also, I feel that the cultural right, Americans with conservative values, or whatever you want to call it, are focused squarely on some of these issues, while ignoring the broader trends in American life and society, at least as it relates to politics. I think Trump was toxic to the psyches of not just people who hated him, but people who loved him, and maybe even those who tolerated him for some notion of the greater good. He was a nasty man, he was a cruel man, he represented an epic untethering from the truth. I disagree with Biden on abortion, gay marriage, and transgender rights. But I don't think Biden makes his supporters nastier or crueler people. On divisive issues, he has positions, just like Trump did, just like everyone does. But he's not toxic to American politics and society. Trump was.

There also needs to be some honesty about how much of an influence the president, or any politician, can have on cultural issues. Right-wingers feel that Trump was elected to push back on the cultural left... and my question is, how did that work out?


You're very wrong here. Geography is king when it comes to the culture war and you can't really compromise on some of the issues. The correct solution is to just agree to disagree and move on.
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Jan 24 2021 02:16pm
Quote (thundercock @ Jan 24 2021 02:32pm)
You're very wrong here. Geography is king when it comes to the culture war and you can't really compromise on some of the issues. The correct solution is to just agree to disagree and move on.


There's common threads that connect pretty much all Americans. Obviously on issues like guns, religion, race, the people on the far ends of those spectrums have radically different viewpoints. But most of us are somewhere in the middle.
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Jan 24 2021 02:18pm
Quote (IceMage @ Jan 24 2021 12:16pm)
There's common threads that connect pretty much all Americans. Obviously on issues like guns, religion, race, the people on the far ends of those spectrums have radically different viewpoints. But most of us are somewhere in the middle.


Even people in the middle would have difficulty agreeing on policy on wedge issues. They are called wedge issues for a reason. I think these become harmful when you focus on those issues and nothing else.
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