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#321
Mar 21 2016 05:22pm
Quote (Voyaging @ Mar 21 2016 04:20pm)
We must eat something to survive. The suffering and harm caused by factory farming is orders of magnitude greater than from vegetable farming.


Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. It's hard to keep track of all the gotchas that get thrown around.

"You're causing 1/10 the amount of harm I'm causing, so you have no room to speak!"
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#322
Mar 21 2016 05:25pm
Quote (Nathan @ 21 Mar 2016 23:17)
I'm not okay with the practice of eating animals period in a world where we have the option not to at no expense to ourselves, and not only at no expense to ourselves, but at a reduced expense. It takes like 10 times less clean water per calorie of food produced to produce vegan food than animal products.

More ethical practices would be an improvement, but not the solution. The ultimate fate of these animals is still that we kill them for pleasure, which is unacceptable.

By the way, animal products labelled "free-range" are anything but. That's a stupid marketing gimmick. They are still treated horribly, they are by no means [always, or even usually] on an actual free range.


It may be more viable financially but it is terrible for your health. It also kills more animals per calorie than meat.

Overall it's just more viable and sensible, both morally and healthwise to eat a balanced diet with as much homegrown or locally hunted food as you can acquire.
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#323
Mar 21 2016 05:26pm
Quote (Nathan @ Mar 21 2016 07:20pm)
Is this another one of those gotchas that end in you informing me that some plastic parts in my computer contain animal byproducts?

I reduce the suffering I cause to animals as far as is possible and practical. My guess is that if I say I eat vegetables without qualms and then you tell me they were fertilized with manure you think it means I have no room to speak.


...no , as I told you before but you so conveniently ignored ... thousands upon thousands of mammals like rabbits and squirrels and birds are torn to shreds by harvesting machines just so you can have your plate of tofu and sprouts - at the very least own up to your own hypocrisy .
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#324
Mar 21 2016 05:26pm
Quote (Scaly @ Mar 21 2016 07:25pm)
It may be more viable financially but it is terrible for your health. It also kills more animals per calorie than meat.


What does?
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#325
Mar 21 2016 05:29pm
Quote (Nathan @ Mar 21 2016 04:17pm)
I'm not okay with the practice of eating animals period in a world where we have the option not to at no expense to ourselves, and not only at no expense to ourselves, but at a reduced expense. It takes like 10 times less clean water per calorie of food produced to produce vegan food than animal products.

More ethical practices would be an improvement, but not the solution. The ultimate fate of these animals is still that we kill them for pleasure, which is unacceptable.

By the way, animal products labelled "free-range" are anything but. That's a stupid marketing gimmick. They are still treated horribly, they are by no means [always, or even usually] on an actual free range.


But is it unethical for one animal to eat another? Does it depend on the intellectual level of the predator? The available alternatives? There are other omnivores on this planet, would a perfectly ethical human society ensure that such omnivores also switch to a purely vegetarian diet?

Furthermore, what about eating animals that die through natural causes? Are vultures more ethical than lions?
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#326
Mar 21 2016 05:31pm
Quote (Scaly @ Mar 21 2016 04:25pm)
It may be more viable financially but it is terrible for your health.


Definitely absolutely positively not. Properly planned you get absolutely everything you need. There are even vegan bodybuilders.

As a bonus you are at a much lower risk for cancer and various degenerative diseases associated with meat consumption.

Quote (Scaly @ Mar 21 2016 04:25pm)
It also kills more animals per calorie than meat.


I know it can harm and displace animals for farming land to be cleared, and that unfortunately large harvesting machines can kill animals in the paths. But Jesus Christ I do not think that is correct. Maybe unless you're including bugs or microorganisms.
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#327
Mar 21 2016 05:31pm
Quote (Voyaging @ 21 Mar 2016 23:26)
What does?


Eating a vegan diet.

Widow's right on this one.

It may not cause more suffering but if your objection to eating meat was to mammalian and bird loss of life then to minimise loss of life you should eat meat.
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#328
Mar 21 2016 05:32pm
Quote (Scaly @ Mar 21 2016 05:31pm)
Eating a vegan diet.

Widow's right on this one.

It may not cause more suffering but if your objection to eating meat was to mammalian and bird loss of life then to minimise loss of life you should eat meat.


There's a lot of animals killed as corn is harvested per cow. I find it hard to believe that you kill more per cow harvesting brocolli, kale, asparagus, etc. than for the massive amount of corn used to feed livestock.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Mar 21 2016 05:33pm
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#329
Mar 21 2016 05:33pm
Quote (Scaly @ Mar 21 2016 06:31pm)
Eating a vegan diet.

Widow's right on this one.

It may not cause more suffering but if your objection to eating meat was to mammalian and bird loss of life then to minimise loss of life you should eat meat.


A vegan diet is far more healthy than a diet with meat/dairy. It reduces the risk of disease and cancer.

This post was edited by IceMage on Mar 21 2016 05:34pm
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#330
Mar 21 2016 05:34pm
Quote (russian @ Mar 21 2016 04:29pm)
But is it unethical for one animal to eat another? Does it depend on the intellectual level of the predator? The available alternatives? There are other omnivores on this planet, would a perfectly ethical human society ensure that such omnivores also switch to a purely vegetarian diet?


Other animals are not moral agents as they can't think critically about their actions.
Also even if they could, it would still be ethical for them to kill other animal for food as they don't have the means to eat a non-animal diet and their only alternative wold be starving. I think that covers those questions.

Quote (russian @ Mar 21 2016 04:29pm)
Furthermore, what about eating animals that die through natural causes?


Not really a moral problem for humans. But it would never come close to a fraction of the current demand for animal products.

Quote (russian @ Mar 21 2016 04:29pm)
Are vultures more ethical than lions?


No, because neither are moral agents.

This post was edited by Nathan on Mar 21 2016 05:34pm
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