GTFO with your constant shift between using 'socialist' the american way, for fearmongering when it fits your narrative, and then using it the correct european way to suggest american 'socialists' aren't aiming for exactly what northern and western european societies do. you can't have it both ways without being a massive hack.



one side is boycotting to stop massive human rights abuses, and violations of international law - the other side is boycotting to silence criticism of those abuses...

So to you true socialism is anywhere socialism failed and fake socialism is where it is successful?

Lol. You have universal single payer healthcare and reasonable universities. You guys are super collectivist. You can just live on the dole in any of the places you've mentioned.

Educate yourself on the definition of the terms before attempting to discuss them.

Socialism = no private property, all means of production are nationalized, no for-profit economic activity, the government essentially controls everything.
Social Democracy = capitalistic system with private property, for-profit business, but relatively high taxes and a generous welfare state alleviate and rein in the worst excesses of capitalism.


I personally am a big fan of the ideas of (classical, non-globalist) Social Democracy, except for the social engineering that often times comes with it. And I am not blind to the fact that its success hinges on certain social and cultural preconditions which are satisfied to a larger degree in Europe than the U.S.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 20 2019 10:01am

Educate yourself to the context of your social environment and know that nobody is arguing for what you are are standing against when discussing socialism here.

Nobody is talking about turning the EU into an agrarian collective body.

This post was edited by Skinned on Aug 20 2019 10:17am

aka, "Less fucks givin and more cucks livin"

Sort of.

The key condition is the concept of "solidarity". No social democracy/socialism/big welfare system will work (in a democracy) if there isnt enough solidarity between different segments of the respective society.
And for various historical, cultural, religious and demographic reasons, the US society is less solidaric and places a higher emphasis on individual responsibility than Europe.




The Soviet Union wasnt an agrarian collective body either, and still practiced socialism.


And yes, the distinction between socialism and social democracy is becoming relevant for the American debate due to the Democrats trending ever more to the left. To name just one example, there is a big practical and theoretical difference between "medicare for everyone who wants it" and "socialized healthcare where private insurance is outlawed". I actually agree that for the longest time, virtually everybody talking about "socialism" in the US was actually referring to principles of social democracy. But this is no longer the case, and therefore, distinguishing between the two has become vital.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 20 2019 11:29am

it's difficult to quantify but i've always felt the "we left, they stayed" effect is relevant to. like those who left Europe and elsewhere to start a new life in the USA knew they had a chance of failure, they knew that boats coming over could be hell holes, etc. once they got here they worked through rampant anti-immigrant sentiments from people who were only 2nd or 3rd generation americans themselves. they took off west on the promise of open till-able land or gold. they're the scrappers, the get up and go type people. not to say the bloodlines left in Europe are weak, just that those that came to america were more solidly ambitious and willing to sacrifice safety for opportunity. also the echos of past generations going through such a struggle lives on today in their descendants.

but yes, 100% the lack of homogeneous population is a major hurdle for the USA. i've talked a lot about how the ivory tower homogeneous population of Europe is relevant in many of the differences the Eu and USA have, from gun ownership to welfare programs to even simple manners.

That's certainly a big contributing factor. Another one is that the original US population consisted almost exclusively of Protestants - and there's just a big difference between the Protestant work ethic and the Catholic social teaching. This difference between Protestant societies and Catholic ones imho explains why the US and Canada have always leaned to the right on economic issues, while predominantly Catholic Latin America has always leaned to the left.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Aug 20 2019 11:36am

urrh durr evil government