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Jun 11 2019 11:20am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 11 Jun 2019 13:18)
Who are these thoughtful sophisticated liberals?

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supposedly
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Jun 11 2019 11:43am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Jun 11 2019 12:18pm)
Who are these thoughtful sophisticated liberals?


As far as media personalities, Ezra Klein is pretty good. He has a podcast.

At some point adults who follow politics need to move beyond the outrage machine and read or listen to people who present the best arguments for their side.
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Jun 11 2019 11:55am
Quote (IceMage @ Jun 11 2019 10:43am)
As far as media personalities, Ezra Klein is pretty good. He has a podcast.

At some point adults who follow politics need to move beyond the outrage machine and read or listen to people who present the best arguments for their side.


any specific episode you'd recommend?

a large majority of the content I listen to is conservative/libertarian and christian conservative as far as political discussions go I rarely listen to people with views similar to mine

I like calm substantive conversations between people of different views and backgrounds but that isn't always easy to find

once people get loud and hacky and close off it annoys me
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Jun 11 2019 12:09pm
Quote (Beowulf @ Jun 11 2019 12:55pm)
any specific episode you'd recommend?

a large majority of the content I listen to is conservative/libertarian and christian conservative as far as political discussions go I rarely listen to people with views similar to mine

I like calm substantive conversations between people of different views and backgrounds but that isn't always easy to find

once people get loud and hacky and close off it annoys me


I guess the David French episode where they talk identity politics. Ezra interviews people from all across the political spectrum, and sometimes other people from Vox sit in for him.

You should listen to the Remnant Podcast if you don't already.
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Jun 11 2019 12:09pm
Quote (excellence @ Jun 11 2019 12:20pm)


FTFY
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Jun 11 2019 12:28pm
Quote (IceMage @ Jun 11 2019 12:14pm)
First off, I think most polling shows that Americans are less racist today than they have ever been before. The alt-right movement organizes rallies and a handful of people show up.

Second, if being faced with ideas and history that shines a critical light on white people causes you to become so triggered that you begin to view your identity mainly through your white race(in a tribalistic way, us against them), doesn't that affirm what the liberals are saying? There's already something inside these people that gets brought out, not because more liberals are talking about these issues, but because these guys have a portal on their desk that presents a feedback loop of material that triggers their SWS(scared whitey syndrome, as Skinned says).

Why face the thoughtful, sophisticated liberal when we can just scour the internet for a liberal caricature and feel self-righteous when it gets knocked down by our favorite YouTuber?


Are we talking about white supremacists, or the alt-right? They're two different groups of people, let's not make the same mistake you discuss above and make caricatures of them.

I don't think many people are arguing that racism doesn't exist, or that slavery wasn't a historical ill. But you couldn't make it a few sentences without grouping "white people" into a single racial bloc. That's a problem. There is no white male conspiracy, and white men no more perpetuate "white male supremacy" than a Native American is guilty of perpetuating a cycle of poverty.

If we want to address inequality, let's work to implement narrow, specific policy designed to combat it. Greater funding and competition for schools in poor neighbourhoods, programs to combat gang violence, integration of police into the neighbourhoods they serve.

Instead we can't help but personify inequality, and we personify it as a white male. White men are responsible for oppression, and if they don't accept our specific solutions, they're guilty of supporting a racist status quo. All too easy then to dismiss the concerns of poor white southerners, who are objectively suffering from structural inequality, and dismiss their concerns as a case of them "clinging to guns and religion". After all, they're part of the problem.

You act like this is a fringe issue, and yet a number of high profile contenders for the Democratic nomination now call for reparations. Whatever you make of it, that's not a fringe discussion, it's mainstream. When Clinton refers to half the country as "deplorable", it's not a fringe issue, it's the candidate of this country's largest party dehumanizing half the electorate for refusing to accept a worldview that caters to the wealthy, greens, and corporate elite, all the while promising minorities that they'll visit unholy retribution on their supposed oppressors. Is there any more blatant a case of "us versus them"?
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Jun 11 2019 01:22pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2019 01:28pm)
Are we talking about white supremacists, or the alt-right? They're two different groups of people, let's not make the same mistake you discuss above and make caricatures of them.

I don't think many people are arguing that racism doesn't exist, or that slavery wasn't a historical ill. But you couldn't make it a few sentences without grouping "white people" into a single racial bloc. That's a problem. There is no white male conspiracy, and white men no more perpetuate "white male supremacy" than a Native American is guilty of perpetuating a cycle of poverty.

If we want to address inequality, let's work to implement narrow, specific policy designed to combat it. Greater funding and competition for schools in poor neighbourhoods, programs to combat gang violence, integration of police into the neighbourhoods they serve.

Instead we can't help but personify inequality, and we personify it as a white male. White men are responsible for oppression, and if they don't accept our specific solutions, they're guilty of supporting a racist status quo. All too easy then to dismiss the concerns of poor white southerners, who are objectively suffering from structural inequality, and dismiss their concerns as a case of them "clinging to guns and religion". After all, they're part of the problem.

You act like this is a fringe issue, and yet a number of high profile contenders for the Democratic nomination now call for reparations. Whatever you make of it, that's not a fringe discussion, it's mainstream. When Clinton refers to half the country as "deplorable", it's not a fringe issue, it's the candidate of this country's largest party dehumanizing half the electorate for refusing to accept a worldview that caters to the wealthy, greens, and corporate elite, all the while promising minorities that they'll visit unholy retribution on their supposed oppressors. Is there any more blatant a case of "us versus them"?


Hillary calls half of Trump supporters deplorable because she believes they are racist, sexist, etc, so of course the natural reaction for a white Trump supporter is to embrace racism?

ok.jpg

E - You seem to be defending responding to the left's identity politics with a white identity politics.

This post was edited by IceMage on Jun 11 2019 01:26pm
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Jun 11 2019 01:43pm
Look up top at the poll results. 666 votes for Trump, aka, the number of the beast. :D



/e I can just see it... If the Dems get Trump removed from office, they'll have Pelosi standing in the oval office saying: "This house is clean".











This post was edited by Ghot on Jun 11 2019 01:53pm
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Jun 11 2019 01:50pm
Quote (IceMage @ Jun 11 2019 02:22pm)
Hillary calls half of Trump supporters deplorable because she believes they are racist, sexist, etc, so of course the natural reaction for a white Trump supporter is to embrace racism?

ok.jpg

E - You seem to be defending responding to the left's identity politics with a white identity politics.


I'm describing a problem, not advocating for that problem as a solution.

Are you surprised that people radicalize when they're scapegoated or ignored? In Europe, we've seen far right party support decline after their centrist opponents started adopting a stronger stance on immigration. Not radical, but taking the issue seriously and addressing their concerns. That's the correct response, not the Scaly / Clinton method of demonizing your opposition.

As I said, though, you're doing yourself a disservice when you conflate white supremacists with the alt-right. The former is a fringe movement filled with a pitiful collection of rejects pushing an aged agenda, the other is a modern movement that's filling a void in the modern political discourse.
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Jun 11 2019 01:55pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2019 02:50pm)
I'm describing a problem, not advocating for that problem as a solution.

Are you surprised that people radicalize when they're scapegoated or ignored? In Europe, we've seen far right party support decline after their centrist opponents started adopting a stronger stance on immigration. Not radical, but taking the issue seriously and addressing their concerns. That's the correct response, not the Scaly / Clinton method of demonizing your opposition.

As I said, though, you're doing yourself a disservice when you conflate white supremacists with the alt-right. The former is a fringe movement filled with a pitiful collection of rejects pushing an aged agenda, the other is a modern movement that's filling a void in the modern political discourse.


I'll reply more in depth later, but on the bold, I think you're conflating the Trump right with the alt-right. The alt-right are guys like Richard Spencer, not Steve Bannon.
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