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Mar 21 2016 04:48pm
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Mar 21 2016 03:30pm)
...you made the positive claim , it is incumbent upon you to tell us why they are equivalent with something other than poor analogies .


If you torture an animal for psychological thrill, it results in the pain and/or death of the animal, and the good feeling you get from it: the thrill
If you farm animals in factories, it results in prolonged pain and suffering for the animals (the duration of their lives), and the good feeling you get from it: the taste in your mouth.

Now, of course, an argument against the latter is that we need food to survive, and of course no one disagrees that you have to do what you have to do to survive even if it means causing pain to other beings.
But our material conditions for the majority in the first world are such that eating animal products is nothing but a choice, as we have access to a diet completely free from them at no difficulty.

Further, with the mass farming of animals we externalize a huge cost to our environment. So not only is it directly the suffering of some animals, but it is the suffering of humanity in days to come. While I would not go out of my way to convince people of this, it could easily be argued that a vegan who tortures animals occasionally is doing less harm--is morally superior than a meat-eater who does not.
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Mar 21 2016 04:51pm
Quote (Nathan @ Mar 21 2016 06:48pm)
If you torture an animal for psychological thrill, it results in the pain and/or death of the animal, and the good feeling you get from it: the thrill
If you farm animals in factories, it results in prolonged pain and suffering for the animals (the duration of their lives), and the good feeling you get from it: the taste in your mouth.

Now, of course, an argument against the latter is that we need food to survive, and of course no one disagrees that you have to do what you have to do to survive even if it means causing pain to other beings.
But our material conditions for the majority in the first world are such that eating animal products is nothing but a choice, as we have access to a diet completely free from them at no difficulty.

Further, with the mass farming of animals we externalize a huge cost to our environment. So not only is it directly the suffering of some animals, but it is the suffering of humanity in days to come. While I would not go out of my way to convince people of this, it could easily be argued that a vegan who tortures animals occasionally is doing less harm--is morally superior than a meat-eater who does not.


...here is where you keep failing to understand - just because it bothers you does not mean it bothers me or others - can you accept this reality ?
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Mar 21 2016 04:53pm
Quote (IceMage @ Mar 21 2016 04:04pm)
Heart disease so tasty.


Lol, yeah right, that's only if you're fat.
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Mar 21 2016 04:53pm
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Mar 21 2016 03:51pm)
...here is where you keep failing to understand - just because it bothers you does not mean it bothers me or others - can you accept this reality ?


Of course I understand and accept that.

But you are being intellectually dishonest. Your request was that I explain why they are morally equivalent. I explained why, and now instead of addressing why they aren't morally equivalent as I explained, you're just telling me that it doesn't bother people.
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Mar 21 2016 04:56pm
Quote (Nathan @ Mar 21 2016 04:04pm)
You don't without cognitive dissonance.

You cannot be morally disturbed by someone finding an animal in the street and torturing it for their pleasure if you pay people to torture animals for your own palate pleasure. Neither is necessary.


Getting free food and shelter for life isn't exactly torture.
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Mar 21 2016 04:56pm
Quote (j0ltk0la @ Mar 21 2016 03:56pm)
Getting free food and shelter for life isn't exactly torture.


Slaves get free food and shelter for life as well.
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Mar 21 2016 04:59pm
Quote (Nathan @ Mar 21 2016 06:53pm)
Of course I understand and accept that.

But you are being intellectually dishonest. Your request was that I explain why they are morally equivalent. I explained why, and now instead of addressing why they aren't morally equivalent as I explained, you're just telling me that it doesn't bother people.


...they aren't morally equivalent to me because animal torture for the sake of torture is not the same as the perceived discomfort of factory farmed animals before they get a steel bolt through the brain in a quick death .

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Mar 21 2016 05:02pm
Quote (Nathan @ Mar 21 2016 03:56pm)
Slaves get free food and shelter for life as well.


Yeah, and slavery isn't torture. You could certainly call farm animals slaves of sorts, few people would disagree.
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Mar 21 2016 05:02pm
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ 21 Mar 2016 22:59)
...they aren't morally equivalent to me because animal torture for the sake of torture is not the same as the perceived discomfort of factory farmed animals before they get a steel bolt through the brain in a quick death .


'perceived discomfort '? Come on now... You're being dishonest again.
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Mar 21 2016 05:04pm
Quote (russian @ Mar 21 2016 04:02pm)
Yeah, and slavery isn't torture. You could certainly call farm animals slaves of sorts, few people would disagree.


My point was that using the fact that some being gets free food and shelter for life isn't a metric of deciding if it's fair by itself.
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