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Sep 21 2022 12:12pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Sep 21 2022 11:31am)
If a procedure improves the long term outcomes for people it is your obligation as a physician to do it.

This is based on evidence, not feelings.


There is more evidence suggesting the complete opposite of your assertion. A few anecdotes or studies from pay to chop houses don't pass as solid evidence, just a marketing deck for LGBT+ consumers to get moist over.
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Sep 21 2022 12:31pm
Quote (RedFromWinter @ Sep 21 2022 01:12pm)
There is more evidence suggesting the complete opposite of your assertion. A few anecdotes or studies from pay to chop houses don't pass as solid evidence, just a marketing deck for LGBT+ consumers to get moist over.


For what specific group?

For adults the evidence is pretty clear it helps. I'll read snipa's post later and see what it says about children, and then see if I can dig up affirmative or contradictory evidence on the side.
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Sep 21 2022 12:37pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Sep 21 2022 01:31pm)
For what specific group?

For adults the evidence is pretty clear it helps. I'll read snipa's post later and see what it says about children, and then see if I can dig up affirmative or contradictory evidence on the side.


I can save you the time if you'd like and tell you that you'll end up in "to make an omelet you have to surgically remove a few eggs" camp.

all studies, even those critical of the practice, tend to find that most of the people by percent are helped by it. but that a percentage, either nominally small or noteworthy in size depending on the limited studies we have, come to deeply regret their choice for a wide variety of reasons.

its all a matter of whether or not we should subject children to those odds, odds we can't even accurately quantify as of now given a limited sample size and other polling bias issues.
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Sep 21 2022 12:43pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 21 2022 01:37pm)
I can save you the time if you'd like and tell you that you'll end up in "to make an omelet you have to surgically remove a few eggs" camp.

all studies, even those critical of the practice, tend to find that most of the people by percent are helped by it. but that a percentage, either nominally small or noteworthy in size depending on the limited studies we have, come to deeply regret their choice for a wide variety of reasons.

its all a matter of whether or not we should subject children to those odds, odds we can't even accurately quantify as of now given a limited sample size and other polling bias issues.


I'm somewhat familiar with the current literature for adults, and it more or less says that everybody who wants it beneifts except the ones with an openly hostile support network. I.e. if you get surgery you like the surgery but if your family treats you like shit for having it you won't like that.

Even if the surgery is risky, we let children with parents and with the assistance of their doctors make that decision. It isn't something we should outright ban because understanding the risk and making a choice is an integral part of medical autonomy. If we find that 99% of children have better outcomes but 1% have worse, and their parents and the child consent, and the doctor with their best judgement agrees on evidentiary grounds, then there's nothing unethical about that.
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Sep 21 2022 12:59pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Sep 21 2022 01:43pm)
I'm somewhat familiar with the current literature for adults, and it more or less says that everybody who wants it beneifts except the ones with an openly hostile support network. I.e. if you get surgery you like the surgery but if your family treats you like shit for having it you won't like that.

Even if the surgery is risky, we let children with parents and with the assistance of their doctors make that decision. It isn't something we should outright ban because understanding the risk and making a choice is an integral part of medical autonomy. If we find that 99% of children have better outcomes but 1% have worse, and their parents and the child consent, and the doctor with their best judgement agrees on evidentiary grounds, then there's nothing unethical about that.


Societal and support network perception is a non-issue for me in making my decision. its the complications from the surgery itself and lack of post-op therapeutics that worry me. lack of sensation, painful sex, other physical ailments related to urination, rampant infection, etc.

the study i linked includes a stat that something like 53% of men post-op were found to have a complication with a name that sounded so gross i refused to google it.

for many its a trade of a sex life they dont feel matches their identity for no sex at all but genitalia that matches their identity. this can cause some short term positive effects and tragic long term ones. and its hard to then separate people who commit suicide as causal from the surgery with the large input of suicidal risks that trans people inherently have.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 21 2022 01:00pm
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Sep 21 2022 01:02pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 21 2022 01:59pm)
Societal and support network perception is a non-issue for me. its the complications from the surgery itself and lack of post-op therapeutics that worry me. lack of sensation, painful sex, other physical ailments related to urination, rampant infection, etc.

the study i linked includes a stat that something like 53% of men post-op were found to have a complication with a name that sounded so gross i refused to google it.

for many its a trade of a sex life they dont feel matches their identity for no sex at all but genitalia that matches their identity. this can cause some short term positive effect and tragic long term ones. and its hard to then separate people who commit suicide as causal from the surgery with the large input of suicidal risks that trans people inherently have.


I don't think you're understanding the reason people want this. This isn't about just sexual pleasure. It's about your body matching your identity and removing the dysphoria that comes with it.

Like if you were forced to wear a dress every day that you didn't like. But it's sewn into your skin.
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Sep 21 2022 01:15pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Sep 21 2022 01:31pm)
For what specific group?

For adults the evidence is pretty clear it helps. I'll read snipa's post later and see what it says about children, and then see if I can dig up affirmative or contradictory evidence on the side.


Children
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Sep 21 2022 01:15pm
Quote (Cascadian @ Sep 21 2022 10:37am)
lmao, this is worse than bigfoot hunters


Quest-ce que?







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Sep 21 2022 01:16pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Sep 21 2022 02:02pm)
I don't think you're understanding the reason people want this. This isn't about just sexual pleasure. It's about your body matching your identity and removing the dysphoria that comes with it.

Like if you were forced to wear a dress every day that you didn't like. But it's sewn into your skin.


i understand it quite well, as i tried to illustrate with this quote:

Quote
for many its a trade of a sex life they dont feel matches their identity for no sex at all but genitalia that matches their identity.


i just mistakenly omitted genitalia from the former.

its not an easy question, that being how important is sex to you. perhaps for some escaping the skin suit is worth it. i just think giving it to children who dont even have the ability to judge what sex is yet and what they may be losing if they cant have it should have it done to them.
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Sep 21 2022 01:20pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 21 2022 02:16pm)
i understand it quite well, as i tried to illustrate with this quote:

i just mistakenly omitted genitalia from the former.

its not an easy question, that being how important is sex to you. perhaps for some escaping the skin suit is worth it. i just think giving it to children who dont even have the ability to judge what sex is yet and what they may be losing if they cant have it should have it done to them.


When I read "sex life" I think specifically what happens in the bedroom. When it's really all the time, which is why I didn't understand what you were saying.

Like I said, it needs to be a decision made in light of the evidence with the parents, children, and doctor. This is one of those things that are best left alone to the experts and individuals. Not something we as a broader society really have a right to ban. If a doctor says "my assesment of this patient is that the procedure wouldn't help" that's fine (not on religious grounds). If the parents say "we aren't comfortable with the risks", that's fine too. If the parents, doctor, and child are all on board and they've been properly explained the risks, that's fine too.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Sep 21 2022 01:21pm
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