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#31
Jan 28 2022 06:03pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ 29 Jan 2022 00:59)
I think central to the case is any crossing of state lines. You can't have a minor cross state lines to take advantage of a lower age of consent without invoking federal law and a subsequent age of consent of 18.


Isn't a crossing of state lines kinda inevitable in a lot of cases where an agglomeration crosses or touches upon state lines, say NYC vs NJ, Philly vs NJ/MD, Chicago vs IN, Charlotte vs SC?
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#32
Jan 28 2022 06:08pm
If seen enough anime to approve of this relationship
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#33
Jan 28 2022 06:14pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 28 2022 11:59pm)
It might or might not be a legal grey area, but morally, the case is crystal clear if you ask me: when expensive gifts are the explicit reason a young girl goes on a "date" with an older, rich man and this arrangement was made formal beforehand by meeting via a well-known escort or sugar daddy site, then the intent of engaging in the act of prostitution by both sides is undeniable.

Making gifts during a regular date is normal, having a "date" specifically because you promised the girl expensive gifts is prostitution. In practice, it might often times be difficult to prove that a date hinged on the promise of payment via gifts, but this case right here seems dry and cut.


lets please not talk about morals here, we live in a full degen age where any kind of crazy behavior is celebrated, but some dude buying stuff for women in exchange for sex is bad

the same people shitting on him celebrate ""pride""" parades where half naked people with 12 genders in leather are twerking in public in front of children
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#34
Jan 28 2022 06:15pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 28 2022 05:46pm)
Oh, I totally agree that these issues can get thorny. I just don't think there's any ambiguity in a case like this one where they hooked up on an explicit escort/sugar daddy site.


But until now, those sites have remained in the grey area. I mean, if posting on a sugar daddy website was enough to convict someone for prostitution, they wouldn't exist. Per the Matt Gaetz escapade (oh funny how its always republicans);
Quote
“When someone says, ‘Here’s money and in exchange you’re going to have sex with me,’ that’s a very straightforward prostitution case,” said Matthew Galluzzo, who formerly worked in the New York County District Attorney’s Office as a sex crimes prosecutor. “But Seeking Arrangement allows two people to get to know each other over time, and I think it’s understood what’s supposed to happen, but it’s never really necessarily said.”

Even in that case, the allegation is the girl was underage in the state he was in, unlike the MN case, because MN has the same age of consent as Alabama for whatever reason
What happens if a couple hooks up on a sugar daddy website, forms a real relationship, moves in, meets the parents, gets married, etc?
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#35
Jan 28 2022 06:16pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Jan 28 2022 06:08pm)
If seen enough anime to approve of this relationship


Japan has problems tbh

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#36
Jan 28 2022 06:21pm
Ok, but why?
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#37
Jan 28 2022 06:23pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Jan 28 2022 05:59pm)
I think central to the case is any crossing of state lines. You can't have a minor cross state lines to take advantage of a lower age of consent without invoking federal law and a subsequent age of consent of 18.


Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 28 2022 06:03pm)
Isn't a crossing of state lines kinda inevitable in a lot of cases where an agglomeration crosses or touches upon state lines, say NYC vs NJ, Philly vs NJ/MD, Chicago vs IN, Charlotte vs SC?



Also to add more details, digging into the indictment;
https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/press-release/file/1424071/download

I don't see anything about them actually crossing state lines. It purports sex trafficking of a minor for soliciting sex and providing transportation, but as far as I can tell it all occurred intrastate, they didn't charge him under the Mann Act, so its not a real parallel to the Matt Gaetz case
I see they used;
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1591

18 U.S. Code § 1591 - Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion

uh hold up. It says right in the indictment, "sex trafficking of a minor", title 18, united state code, sections 1591(a)(1)
by when you look up the code, it literally says "by force, fraud or coercion" right in the title, and reads:


Quote
(a)Whoever knowingly—
(1)in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, recruits, entices, harbors, transports, provides, obtains, advertises, maintains, patronizes, or solicits by any means a person; or
(2)benefits, financially or by receiving anything of value, from participation in a venture which has engaged in an act described in violation of paragraph (1),
knowing, or, except where the act constituting the violation of paragraph (1) is advertising, in reckless disregard of the fact, that means of force, threats of force, fraud, coercion described in subsection (e)(2), or any combination of such means will be used to cause the person to engage in a commercial sex act, or that the person has not attained the age of 18 years and will be caused to engage in a commercial sex act, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).


There hasn't been any evidence of force, fraud or coercion from what I can tell, not in the actual act of the hookup prior to the legal case and hush money / extortion after the fact.
Section (e)(2) provides:


Quote
(2)The term “coercion” means—
(A)threats of serious harm to or physical restraint against any person;
(B)any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause a person to believe that failure to perform an act would result in serious harm to or physical restraint against any person; or
(C)the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process.


So when the defense says that the statute usually involves coercion and that wasn't present, they weren't kidding, its basically the main element of the statute not just a usual accompanying factor.
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#38
Jan 28 2022 06:33pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Jan 28 2022 04:23pm)
Also to add more details, digging into the indictment;
https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/press-release/file/1424071/download

I don't see anything about them actually crossing state lines. It purports sex trafficking of a minor for soliciting sex and providing transportation, but as far as I can tell it all occurred intrastate, they didn't charge him under the Mann Act, so its not a real parallel to the Matt Gaetz case
I see they used;
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1591

18 U.S. Code § 1591 - Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion

uh hold up. It says right in the indictment, "sex trafficking of a minor", title 18, united state code, sections 1591(a)(1)
by when you look up the code, it literally says "by force, fraud or coercion" right in the title, and reads:




There hasn't been any evidence of force, fraud or coercion from what I can tell, not in the actual act of the hookup prior to the legal case and hush money / extortion after the fact.
Section (e)(2) provides:




So when the defense says that the statute usually involves coercion and that wasn't present, they weren't kidding, its basically the main element of the statute not just a usual accompanying factor.



He slept with 6 child prostitutes and you're here splitting hairs over definitions.
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#39
Jan 28 2022 06:36pm
yeah per the doj's website;
https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-child-sex-trafficking#:~:text=When%20the%20victim%20is%20a,in%20a%20commercial%20sex%20act.

Quote
Section 1591 is called “Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion.” Most people think of “trafficking” as involving movement across state or international borders. However, Section 1591 does not require proof that either the defendant or victim crossed state or international lines.

When the victim is a minor, Section 1591 does not require proof that the defendant used force, threats of force, fraud, or coercion, or any combination of those means, to cause the minor to engage in a commercial sex act.

“Commercial sex act” is defined very broadly to include “any sex act, on account of which anything of value is given to or received by any person.”


So per the DoJ's interpretation of 1591 in this charge, anyone who has a consensual relationship with a 17 year old in a state where the age of consent is 16, is guilty of federal child sex trafficking if they buy her a gift. Because anything of value being exchanged makes it a commercial sex act, and as long as someone is under age 18 the federal government can presuppose that it was a coerced relationship because minors cannot consent, even if states say they can, nullifying the need to establish threats or coercion.
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#40
Jan 28 2022 06:38pm
I thought this was gonna be a matt gaetz defense thread, and I'm disappointed.
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