you made it sound like the state guarantee is needed and that there is some kind of entitlement to resources, if not its my bad

nobody is entitled to anything in this world, thats why i always have to laugh when i hear stuff like "clean water is a human right"

no its not, you have to be out there and get it or create a system where you pay somebody to do it for you

you have a fair point with the overwhelming force, but that can be taken away, when enough people decide to withdraw their loyalty

this system is built on compliance and when we talk about the united states and all the guns in private hands, that power balance is more in favor of the citizens than in other places

which is the main reason the democrats are anti firearms, they dont give a fuck about shootings, but they fear citizens that could resist their money/property grabs

An imaginary tax on an imaginary gain of an imaginary value based on an imaginary media of exchange. Imagination enforced by the state. Capitalism cannot exist without the state.

This post was edited by inkanddagger on May 21 2021 06:47pm

As opposed to profit under communism?

Calling capitalism communism doesn’t make it communism. If there are classes, a state, and the state ensures the stratification of those classes, you do not have communism.

Edit: Xi is a more effective capitalist than Musk. The CCP is more effective at maintaining and protecting the ruling class than the GOP. The seething jealously results in jeers of “communist!”

This post was edited by inkanddagger on May 21 2021 07:32pm

Taxation is imposed, to impose is to force.

I would not mind giving back into a society that is good. But I simply dont see this society as such.

We send young men to do for oil but say its for democracy. Our politicians lie and steal every day. Our media is now about news.
And all that is hidden behind closed doors is even worse.

Id give back if it were good, but its simply not.

feel free to write a check for all your excess gains from labor to help communism advance. as you are a member of the privileged class and i am not i will take my share of your excess gains from labor in the forum ethereum. thank you my friend!

As Marx would tell you, I am entitled the value I’ve produced through my own labor. Your attempt to steal the value of my labor with no productivity of your own is attempted capitalism. You won’t be able to get any of my value though because you aren’t a capitalist, ie you have no state to back your claim with force.

This post was edited by inkanddagger on May 21 2021 07:35pm

no no, its each according to his needs. you dont need all that excess production from your labor. you are privileged, hence your excess gains from labor. and should share it with others. please practice what you preach and worship, thanks!

Taxes = Equivalent of street gangs taking their cut. You pay them for their protection and the right to enter the matrix where you will work forever to pay for goods that will occupy your mind while you work for someone who will make more than your whole lifetime within a blink of an eye. Once you are too old to do said tasks, you will instantly be replaced by a younger # then you will get free money that end up being a little % of all the money you gave the gov during your lifetime by being a # just so you can live your remaining years with enough money to go by . Just make sure you don't get too sick or you won't have the money to survive. You are just a # in a whole system that was made to keep things simple and lucrative for them.

There is ways to live without the need to be part of their system and without the need to live in the matrix. The hard part is to learn every singles skills you will need to supply yourself during the good and the bad times.

You pay taxes to the government for them to carry your ass till you wear diapers again. Otherwise the wolves would take everything while the sheep end up having nothing. There would be no weak people owning business/lands . It would be taken from their hand and they would end up like the natives.

This post was edited by SunnyvaleTrailerPark on May 21 2021 07:51pm

Yes wealth and value are subjective.
Regardless of what you think money or something is worth, the act of taxation is taking an amount away from people. People use that money to get a variety of goods and services, and they typically used a number of hours of labor to acquire it. That is literally being stolen from them by the state.

If I have 10 pieces of green paper or 10 apples and the state forces me to give the IRS 5 of them I am materially worse off, regardless of what they are subjectively valued at by different people.
If you work for 100k a year and the state takes half through taxation you are materially worse off.


Not exactly. A house, car, TV etc are forms of wealth and people are acquiring those.
The state issued currency is the typical medium of exchange / what they get in a paycheck, sure.


I'm reading this a few different ways and not exactly sure what you mean.

This would seem to be presuming the state is responsible for all conditions and your labor.
There is also a trope that everywhere would be some sort of wartorn dystopia or something where work and production are impossible if not for the state taxing people, which just isnt true.
Police etc ostensibly attempting to keep the streets safe do have an effect on the business environment but I do not credit that for 100% of wealth creation, nor are tax funded police required for a safe business environment. I'm not sure anyone here would argue the police are doing a particularly good job these days.
Or is that not what you meant at all?

I think this next part is important for clearing up what might be some misconceptions that you are other people might have-

The green pieces of paper the government prints(or dollars it computes into existence) isn't the actual wealth itself. Its the things you can get for it that must be produced elsewhere.
If they double the amount of green paper in circulation the population isn't suddenly much better off. We owe the state no overwhelming gratitude for merely issuing a currency.
In its absence of USD there would be (and are) alternative mediums of exchange.

But as things stand people here are using USD as the medium of exchange. Depriving workers of a significant percentage of what they get for their labor reduces their material well being. They can buy less than they otherwise could in the absence of taxation.
labor and resources are redirected away from the desires and needs of the workers into the government.

If one guy is a clockmaker and the other guy a farmer, but they use USD as the medium of exchange when dealing with each other, the wealth isnt from the USD. Its the clocks, vegetables, meat, eggs etc and its a result of their labor and investment, not the state.
Taxation and green paper isn't required for them to create wealth and prosper.

I would say govt fiat currency is not particularly legitimate, depending on what you mean by legitimate. The US government removing the gold backing from US dollars and massively inflating the money supply is a huge issue that many libertarians have with the situation.

There is room for confusion when using dollar values to indicate how much a dollar is worth relative to itself. The dollar has been losing massive value relative to goods and services but is always the dollar amount it says on there.

Getting into tl;dr territory and guessing a bit about what you meant and where I think you were going wrong so ill stop there. Hopefully that was helpful.



Crypto is an example of an alternate form of currency that is not issued by the government. It is one potential solution to problems or challenges posed from a lack of government taxation/involvement that you brought up.

gold was used for thousands of years as a currency and is another example.



Thanks. I appreciate the honest inquiry. Refreshing change from the usual political discourse these days.

To that last part -

Libertarians seek to fundamentally change and remove some of the power dynamics you are probably referring to.
I do not want a state ruling over people's lives and confiscating huge percentages of their income.
Abolishing taxation or government completely changes the power dynamic. (or merely reducing intervention and taxation, for the more moderate or minarchist libertarians)
People being free to make choices for themselves and keep what they earn vs the government stealing a significant amount from them and often spending it on things that further restrict their liberty or on wars of aggression killing people abroad.
Voluntary action vs coercion.