Sometimes regressive forces do win the conflict.

Sometimes the things which are labeled "progress" are actually a step in the wrong direction.

I guess it comes across that way because I oppose dumb right-wing arguments, and those are the only arguments you guys make these days.

I think there really are three political camps in America who pursue fundamentally different policies and goals:

- lefties and progressives, represented by people like Bernie, Warren, AOC, who genuinely want to enact progressive policies.
- centrist-ish people ranging from center-left to center-right who are primarly institutionalists and proponents of the neoliberal status quo, represented by people like Biden, Hillary, Romney, the Bushes.
- conservatives and right-wingers who actually want to see staunch social and cultural policies enacted (as opposed to the Bushes and Romneys who only use this stuff to garner votes), represented by people like Trump, Cruz, Pence.

In America's two-party system, these three groups cannot be represented by coherent parties of their own. The second group has always been split between the two parties, and most of the time, both parties were dominated by this camp. But the more one of the left- or right-wing groups gain power within their respective party, the more these centrists are pushed toward the other party. This is what's happening with people like IceMage or thundercock in the age of Trump. I dont think that there's anything inconsistent about it.

the welfare system was designed to keep down the darkies

I agree, but there is also an element of cognitive dissonance to it as well. Someone who spends a lot of time fighting alongside conservatives will become more conservative, which is what we see happening to a number of anti-establishment types that are now falling to the right. The same for erstwhile conservative centrists, who are becoming more liberal the more fight alongside them.

When your beliefs (conservative policy positions) and actions (new voting pattern) conflict, the easiest way to reconcile the two is to change what you believe.

This seems to be how many Trump cultists look at American politics... but I don't accept it at all. You're minimizing the distinctions between center-left and center-right, while maximizing the other distinctions.

Trump has governed policy wise like a normal Republican in a lot of ways. The major accomplishments of the Trump administration(conservative judges/justices, tax cuts, Middle East peace) were establishment Republican goals. That's why, for the first two, Mitch McConnell made them happen.

So, a Mitt Romney presidency policy-wise looks very similar to Trump's, outside of a few areas like the trade war with China, instances of weak foreign policy with Turkey and Iran, etc. A Mitt Romney presidency is closer to Trump's than it would be to a Hillary Clinton presidency. On center-left vs. left, this is the framing that socialists use. People like Biden who stake out a middle ground in order to pursue policies that have a chance to pass are called "corporatist". I simply disagree. It's the same in the Republican party... anyone who tries to compromise is branded a "RINO". American politics would be better if politicians weren't punished for compromising.

A devout right-wing Mormon in office looks culturally conservative, in the (IMO) positive sense. Not the white grievance sense, like Trump. Anyone on the center-left or left basically accepts most of the cultural left's arguments. So, technically holding onto white grievance and fanning those flames is conservative in the context of America, but it's the dark side of cultural conservatism. It's also the minority view. Trump looks ridiculous defending the Confederate flag, but he does it because he thinks it's what right-wingers believe.

I support leaders who are culturally conservative, just not in the stupid, dark sense. There's a better path.

This post was edited by IceMage on Nov 2 2020 10:12am

Our march towards progress is generally a random walk with a bias towards that direction.

In the long term we go that way, but the path is messy.

and even when you tell people they're making the same stupid arguments that took us off the path last time they don't listen because they weren't paying attention.

How? Conservative values as they currently are go increasingly without support from newer generations. Either the cultural trajectory is going to need a massive shift, or conservative values and messaging will need a shift.

Crazy ideas and movements tend to self-destruct sooner or later. The progressive ideas which are genuinely good will stand the test of time, others will not. On some hot button issues, the conservative position is the correct one and will prevail in the end. On others, the progressive idea will prevail, and conservatives will eventually give up their resistance and embrace the new, more liberal status quo. See, e.g., gay marriage.