d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Happy Brexit Day!
Prev123456Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 16,020
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 102,354.50
Feb 1 2020 12:23am
Quote (fender @ Feb 1 2020 12:17am)
wow, just... wow! i have a question: are you just trying to up your post count, or is this some kind of 5D troll game, where looking like a total buffoon means 'winning'? i mean, you can't possibly expect anyone to read that and go 'yeah, that dude is informed and he's right about this'...
seriously, the ignorance displayed concerning even the most basic economic principles, and political mechanisms concerning the EU, is off the charts. you're so hilariously wrong, that even ghot's braindead drivel looks sufferable by comparison...


Wow this sure sounds like one of those butthurt globalists that still, after more then 3 years, get seriously triggered by brexit. Do you remember and comprehend that there was a referendum and the British voted out???

Your leftist globalist shite politics cannot bring anything against this fact, you idiots got defeated in a democratic and fair referendum. Feels good to see guys like you still crying about it though
Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Feb 1 2020 03:01am
Quote (Djunior @ 1 Feb 2020 07:23)
Wow this sure sounds like one of those butthurt globalists that still, after more then 3 years, get seriously triggered by brexit. Do you remember and comprehend that there was a referendum and the British voted out???

Your leftist globalist shite politics cannot bring anything against this fact, you idiots got defeated in a democratic and fair referendum. Feels good to see guys like you still crying about it though


globalist? triggered by brexit? it's funny that you got called out for making an incredibly ignorant post, showing how even the most basic economic principles and understanding of european politics completely elude you, and you double down trying to swing at me, and completely miss... again.

as a matter of fact, i am one of the few people on 'the left' who were in FAVOUR of brexit, ideally a hard one, from the very beginning - not that it's really relevant in this context, as my personal position has literally nothing to do with your hilariously moronic post:

the reason the EU can't afford to give the UK a sweetheart deal is not 'butthurt' over them leaving, it is to dissuade other members from doing the same, trying to pick and choose their advantages of EU membership, while avoiding the necessary obligations. as to the second part of your post, regarding your complete ignorance of basic economic principles, i can only say that you should look up who is - by far - the most important trading partner of the UK, and then think again, if they're really "better of [sic]" not negotiating with the EU, and just focusing on "other partners" - i mean, that's not how ANY of that works, and you thinking that is genuinely funny, almost adorable.
Member
Posts: 54,185
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Feb 1 2020 03:52am
Quote (fender @ 1 Feb 2020 10:01)
globalist? triggered by brexit? it's funny that you got called out for making an incredibly ignorant post, showing how even the most basic economic principles and understanding of european politics completely elude you, and you double down trying to swing at me, and completely miss... again.

as a matter of fact, i am one of the few people on 'the left' who were in FAVOUR of brexit, ideally a hard one, from the very beginning - not that it's really relevant in this context, as my personal position has literally nothing to do with your hilariously moronic post:

the reason the EU can't afford to give the UK a sweetheart deal is not 'butthurt' over them leaving, it is to dissuade other members from doing the same, trying to pick and choose their advantages of EU membership,while avoiding the necessary obligations. as to the second part of your post, regarding your complete ignorance of basic economic principles, i can only say that you should look up who is - by far - the most important trading partner of the UK, and then think again, if they're really "better of [sic]" not negotiating with the EU, and just focusing on "other partners" - i mean, that's not how ANY of that works, and you thinking that is genuinely funny, almost adorable.


I think you just got to the real crux of all of this: "while avoiding the necessary obligations". Within the EU, and definitely between the EU and the UK, there are wildly divergent opinions on what those necessary obligations should be. Some actors want the EU to just be a trade union, like the original European Economic Area (EEA) from which the EU emerged. Others want the EU to be an "ever closer" political union, a superstate that the national states will eventually merge into after gradually ceding their sovereignty to Brussels.

Brexit was mainly a rejection of the latter concept by the Brits, but the bureaucrats in Brussels have dug their heads in the sand and keep refusing to hear the wakeup call, keep refusing to adjust the concept of the "ever closer union". Considering the fact that this concept has already been rejected in referendums and public votes by the French, the Dutch, the Irish and now the Brits, I believe that it is a big mistake to avoid this discussion about what the endgame of the EU is supposed to look like. The Brussels bureaucrats want to sneakily inch towards "United States of Europe" without getting the official approval by the European population, but they will fail in the end.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Feb 1 2020 03:54am
Member
Posts: 24,082
Joined: Oct 5 2006
Gold: 45.00
Feb 1 2020 04:17am
I certainly blame brexit for my handover. What a night. Happy brexit day :wub:
Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Feb 1 2020 04:33am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 1 Feb 2020 10:52)
I think you just got to the real crux of all of this: "while avoiding the necessary obligations". Within the EU, and definitely between the EU and the UK, there are wildly divergent opinions on what those necessary obligations should be. Some actors want the EU to just be a trade union, like the original European Economic Area (EEA) from which the EU emerged. Others want the EU to be an "ever closer" political union, a superstate that the national states will eventually merge into after gradually ceding their sovereignty to Brussels.

Brexit was mainly a rejection of the latter concept by the Brits, but the bureaucrats in Brussels have dug their heads in the sand and keep refusing to hear the wakeup call, keep refusing to adjust the concept of the "ever closer union". Considering the fact that this concept has already been rejected in referendums and public votes by the French, the Dutch, the Irish and now the Brits, I believe that it is a big mistake to avoid this discussion about what the endgame of the EU is supposed to look like. The Brussels bureaucrats want to sneakily inch towards "United States of Europe" without getting the official approval by the European population, but they will fail in the end.


the rational part of your post, wanting the EU to be limited to certain aspects, is obviously a totally legitimate position to hold (for the sake of a real conversation, i'll just ignore the apparently inevitable outlandish conspiranoia). it's beside the point though: the core obligations were clear to each and every member when they joined, changes were democratically voted on and transparently communicated, and each member is free to leave the union at any point.

wishing the EU to be something different is fair, maybe even reasonable, if you exclusively look at it from the narrow perspective of national economic interest, completely disregarding its history and explicitly declared political goal of bringing peace and stability to europe, strengthening it as a whole - but you don't achieve that by just leaving and trying to get the benefits without the obligations. your best shot at achieving that is actively participating, leading, and thus shaping the union in a direction that you prefer, finding allies that support your goals. the UK never really tried any of that, generally speaking they always acted with arrogance and an undeserved sense of superiority, trying to maximise their benefits while largely abstaining from major common projects, like the monetary union or trying to find fair and workable solutions regarding the refugee problem.
Member
Posts: 54,185
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Feb 1 2020 04:47am
Quote (fender @ 1 Feb 2020 11:33)
the rational part of your post, wanting the EU to be limited to certain aspects, is obviously a totally legitimate position to hold (for the sake of a real conversation, i'll just ignore the apparently inevitable outlandish conspiranoia). it's beside the point though: the core obligations were clear to each and every member when they joined, changes were democratically voted on and transparently communicated, and each member is free to leave the union at any point.

wishing the EU to be something different is fair, maybe even reasonable, if you exclusively look at it from the narrow perspective of national economic interest, completely disregarding its history and explicitly declared political goal of bringing peace and stability to europe, strengthening it as a whole - but you don't achieve that by just leaving and trying to get the benefits without the obligations. your best shot at achieving that is actively participating, leading, and thus shaping the union in a direction that you prefer, finding allies that support your goals. the UK never really tried any of that, generally speaking they always acted with arrogance and an undeserved sense of superiority, trying to maximise their benefits while largely abstaining from major common projects, like the monetary union or trying to find fair and workable solutions regarding the refugee problem.


Uh... no?!

When the UK joined the EEC/A in 1973, it was still a predominantly trade-focused project. It only turned into a clearly political project, with a not-so-clearly communicated but still obvious endgoal of forming "United States of Europe", when the EU was founded with the Maastricht treaty in 1992. Let's read what the wiki entry about this treaty has to say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

Quote
Only three countries held referendums (France, Denmark and Ireland – all required by their respective constitutions).[3] The process of ratifying the treaty was fraught with difficulties in three states. In Denmark, the first Danish Maastricht Treaty referendum was held on 2 June 1992 and ratification of the treaty was rejected by a margin of 50.7% to 49.3%.[4] Subsequently, alterations were made to the treaty through the addition of the Edinburgh Agreement which lists four Danish exceptions, and this treaty was ratified the following year on 18 May 1993 after a second referendum was held in Denmark,[...]

In September 1992, a referendum in France only narrowly supported the ratification of the treaty, with 50.8% in favour. This narrow vote for ratification in France, known at the time as the 'petite oui', led Jacques Delors to comment that "Europe began as an elitist project in which it was believed that all that was required was to convince the decision-makers. That phase of benign despotism is over."[7] Uncertainty over the Danish and French referendums was one of the causes of the turmoil on the currency markets in September 1992, which led to the UK pound's expulsion from the Exchange Rate Mechanism.[citation needed]

In the United Kingdom, an opt-out from the treaty's social provisions was opposed in Parliament by the opposition Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs and the treaty itself by the Maastricht Rebels within the governing Conservative Party. The number of rebels exceeded the Conservative majority in the House of Commons, and thus the government of John Major came close to losing the confidence of the House.[8] In accordance with British constitutional convention, specifically that of parliamentary sovereignty, ratification in the UK was not subject to approval by referendum. Despite this, the British constitutional historian Vernon Bogdanor suggests that there was "a clear constitutional rationale for requiring a referendum" based on the allocation of legislative power.

Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Feb 1 2020 05:13am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 1 Feb 2020 11:47)
Uh... no?!

When the UK joined the EEC/A in 1973, it was still a predominantly trade-focused project. It only turned into a clearly political project, with a not-so-clearly communicated but still obvious endgoal of forming "United States of Europe", when the EU was founded with the Maastricht treaty in 1992. Let's read what the wiki entry about this treaty has to say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty


uh... yes?! you're disingenuously conflating things here: majority support within the EU, and possible referendums in the individual member states. again, each core principle was either known before joining, or voted on by all members, and each member has the right to leave at any point. nothing in your post refutes that, you're just trying to move the goal post. claiming that the EU's predecessors were exclusively 'trade-focused' projects, however, is preposterous. peace and stability in europe was always a goal, even long before the UK's third (!) application (after 1961 and 1967) in 1973 succeeded.
Member
Posts: 54,185
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Feb 1 2020 05:51am
Quote (fender @ 1 Feb 2020 12:13)
. peace and stability in europe was always a goal, even long before the UK's third (!) application in 1973 succeeded.


Trying to preserve peace and stability doesnt automatically imply the goal of a political union, let alone an "ever closer union" which results in the national state ceding their sovereignty to a European superstate.
In fact, prosperity and mutual economic dependence are damn good peacekeepers on their own. The notion that (the core of) Europe would have seen new wars post-1945 if it hadnt been for the EEC/EU is a baseless propaganda lie.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Feb 1 2020 05:52am
Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Feb 1 2020 06:11am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 1 Feb 2020 12:51)
Trying to preserve peace and stability doesnt automatically imply the goal of a political union, let alone an "ever closer union" which results in the national state ceding their sovereignty to a European superstate.
In fact, prosperity and mutual economic dependence are damn good peacekeepers. The notion that (the core of) Europe would have seen new wars post-1945 if it hadnt been for the EEC/EU is a baseless propaganda lie.


well obviously we can't know any of that for sure, but as you correctly pointed out, prosperity and economic cooperation (as we had it) is a very effective deterrent - but literally no one here is claiming or suggesting we would have certainly seen "new wars post 1945", so you might as well stop the ridiculous straw-manning.

speaking of which, i never claimed that an "ever closer union" was always the goal, i claimed that peace and stability was a goal from the very beginning (ECSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community ), i claimed that it ALWAYS had a political component - and that is simply a historical FACT, no matter how often you're trying to deny it.

again, i fully understand the sentiment against a political union, the idea that each member state exclusively focuses on what is in their best economic interest - but that is simply not what the EU developed into, if you like it or not - and that has nothing to do with shady actors nefariously injecting their evil agenda into the european project for whatever reason your far right propaganda tells you - it was a process that members voted on, and are free to abandon at any time.

This post was edited by fender on Feb 1 2020 06:12am
Member
Posts: 16,020
Joined: Jun 27 2010
Gold: 102,354.50
Feb 1 2020 06:15am
Quote (fender @ Feb 1 2020 10:01am)
globalist? triggered by brexit? it's funny that you got called out for making an incredibly ignorant post, showing how even the most basic economic principles and understanding of european politics completely elude you, and you double down trying to swing at me, and completely miss... again.

as a matter of fact, i am one of the few people on 'the left' who were in FAVOUR of brexit, ideally a hard one, from the very beginning - not that it's really relevant in this context, as my personal position has literally nothing to do with your hilariously moronic post:

the reason the EU can't afford to give the UK a sweetheart deal is not 'butthurt' over them leaving, it is to dissuade other members from doing the same, trying to pick and choose their advantages of EU membership, while avoiding the necessary obligations. as to the second part of your post, regarding your complete ignorance of basic economic principles, i can only say that you should look up who is - by far - the most important trading partner of the UK, and then think again, if they're really "better of [sic]" not negotiating with the EU, and just focusing on "other partners" - i mean, that's not how ANY of that works, and you thinking that is genuinely funny, almost adorable.


I could dig up past brexit related posts of mine stating that the Eu makes it hard for members to leave because the union is like a house of cards. My posts also mentioned the (now negative) interest rates, a result of the ECB having to take drastic measures to prevent the collapse of the weaker brothers of the union burdened by debt. If you think I'm clueless about economic principles you're mistaken.

If you have followed the bickering between the two brexit parties, and I have, you can fully understand the term "butthurt EU" because in the end they lost. The British have their brexit AND THAT"S WHAT THEY VOTED FOR. Apparently the British have had enough of the advantages and saw plenty disadvantages don't you think. These are millions of people voting out, who the fuck are you to know it all better. Having to accept an endless stream of migrants, many unskilled / native tongue only is one of the contributing factors why they voted out. Like in many other member states the people are increasingly aware that EU policy is not only an economical benefit but a huge burden as well. Why you think we see so called populism become more popular eh? Try again to impress us
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev123456Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll