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Nov 13 2019 02:11pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 13 2019 02:02pm)
Don't get angry and start flexing with your background because it's quite irrelevant. People have money in jail no doubt, people have much less money and less earning ability in jail versus the outside world. That's reality and if you're arguing with this point then you're pretty dumb m8.

I understand enough to know that most people who fund their addiction do something for money to be able to fund that addiction. It's common sense and consistent with reality that those earning abilities are significantly diminished in jail. Whether it's work, collecting cans, stealing etc, they don't have those same means in jail, so naturally even if they can find those drugs in jail they are much less likely to be able to buy those drugs.

So yes, they are much less likely to feed their addiction in an environment like that versus the outside world.


None of this addresses the fact that hundreds of thousands of people die every year due to either drug use, or the black market trade thereof. It's a literal public health crisis.
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Nov 13 2019 02:16pm
Quote (Surfpunk @ Nov 13 2019 03:11pm)
None of this addresses the fact that hundreds of thousands of people die every year due to either drug use, or the black market trade thereof. It's a literal public health crisis.


No it doesn't it, that wasn't my intention to address that point. That's a much tougher issue. That doesn't mean we can't reduce some of these drug sentences and free up tax payer funds.
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Nov 13 2019 02:17pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 13 2019 03:02pm)
Don't get angry and start flexing with your background because it's quite irrelevant. People have money in jail no doubt, people have much less money and less earning ability in jail versus the outside world. That's reality and if you're arguing with this point then you're pretty dumb m8.

I understand enough to know that most people who fund their addiction do something for money to be able to fund that addiction. It's common sense and consistent with reality that those earning abilities are significantly diminished in jail. Whether it's work, collecting cans, stealing etc, they don't have those same means in jail, so naturally even if they can find those drugs in jail they are much less likely to be able to buy those drugs.

So yes, they are much less likely to feed their addiction in an environment like that versus the outside world.


less likely? maybe. much less likely? hardly.

when you're sitting around all day drugs look more like a good idea to kill time for many people. ive heard it plenty of times, people do drugs in jail/prison because they're bored. people fall back into old habits, etc.

my point is that it's not hard by any means to get drugs in jail. so if you're putting users (who want to use) in jail they'll be able to find drugs. they might go without pudding for a month or lose their anal virginity or spend money they earned on huber leave. but if they want a drug they'll be able to get it, jail or no.

you seem to be operating under and assumption that getting drugs in jail is harder to a preventable degree than on the outside. and that's simply not the case from the time ive spent working in and around them. any convict would laugh at the very idea that getting drugs in jail would be described as "hard".

so let me ask simply, do you think it's "hard" to get drugs in jail? and do you have anything other than a string of "common sense" to back that up? "supervision" and homebrew econ lessons aren't a source that discounts actual convicts.
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Nov 13 2019 02:20pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 13 2019 03:17pm)
less likely? maybe. much less likely? hardly.

when you're sitting around all day drugs look more like a good idea to kill time for many people. ive heard it plenty of times, people do drugs in jail/prison because they're bored. people fall back into old habits, etc.

my point is that it's not hard by any means to get drugs in jail. so if you're putting users (who want to use) in jail they'll be able to find drugs. they might go without pudding for a month or lose their anal virginity or spend money they earned on huber leave. but if they want a drug they'll be able to get it, jail or no.

you seem to be operating under and assumption that getting drugs in jail is harder to a preventable degree than on the outside. and that's simply not the case from the time ive spent working in and around them. any convict would laugh at the very idea that getting drugs in jail would be described as "hard".

so let me ask simply, do you think it's "hard" to get drugs in jail? and do you have anything other than a string of "common sense" to back that up? "supervision" and homebrew econ lessons aren't a source that discounts actual convicts.


It's harder than the outside world that's obvious. You trying to go on various tangents because you can't admit this simple reality is getting boring.
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Nov 13 2019 02:20pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 13 2019 02:16pm)
No it doesn't it, that wasn't my intention to address that point. That's a much tougher issue. That doesn't mean we can't reduce some of these drug sentences and free up tax payer funds.


End the drug war outright, commute all non-violent drug convictions, move some of the money freed up by the end of the drug war to education and treatment, re-purpose some of the newly-idle human resources to stopping human trafficking.

That'll free up a ton of taxpayer funds.
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Nov 13 2019 02:22pm
Quote (Surfpunk @ Nov 13 2019 03:20pm)
End the drug war outright, commute all non-violent drug convictions, move some of the money freed up by the end of the drug war to education and treatment, re-purpose some of the newly-idle human resources to stopping human trafficking.

That'll free up a ton of taxpayer funds.


What i'm saying takes a step in that direction, yet you guys are yelling because we don't directly go there. Change is incremental and what i'm saying is palatable and achievable in the short term.
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Nov 13 2019 02:23pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 13 2019 03:20pm)
It's harder than the outside world that's obvious. You trying to go on various tangents because you can't admit this simple reality is getting boring.


Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 13 2019 11:50am)
What im saying is quite simple. YOU said jailing people would force them to detox. you said that. and that's not true. its easy to get drugs in both jail and prison.

also, to add to that, if you can't find heroin in jail it doesnt matter. because you will find pills, or weed, or coke, or something to stay an addict. then when u get out you'll go find you heroin dealer. people dont just need to detox from a drug, they need to detox from drugs.

in terms of finding drugs it would go easiest to get on the street, easier (than jail) to get a specific drug consistently in prison, still easy to get drugs in jail. you seem to be operating under the false assumption that people can't get drugs in jail, that's false. they only have a hard time getting drugs in solitary confinement which you cant throw just anyone in for the reason of them being an addict alone in many cases.


maybe you should learn to read genius.

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Nov 13 2019 02:31pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 13 2019 02:22pm)
What i'm saying takes a step in that direction, yet you guys are yelling because we don't directly go there. Change is incremental and what i'm saying is palatable and achievable in the short term.


And I'm saying baby steps aren't working when this many people are dying.
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Nov 13 2019 04:16pm
Quote (Surfpunk @ Nov 13 2019 03:31pm)
And I'm saying baby steps aren't working when this many people are dying.



What you’re asking for wouldn’t happen though so what’s even the point?

That bill would die very quickly. If you had the chance to move the needle you wouldn’t just because the needle doesn’t go as far as you want?
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Nov 13 2019 04:30pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 13 2019 04:16pm)
What you’re asking for wouldn’t happen though so what’s even the point?

That bill would die very quickly. If you had the chance to move the needle you wouldn’t just because the needle doesn’t go as far as you want?


Reducing sentences would be a positive first step, but it still leaves the criminalized status of drugs in place, and still allows for the incarceration of non-violent drug offenders. I'm well aware of how spineless our political class is with regard to this issue. That doesn't change my opinion that ending it outright is the right thing to do.
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