Slavery is a much more nuanced issue in the Bible than homosexual relations. Homosexual relations is explicitly condemned in both the Old and New Testament... it's about as black and white as an issue can get.

Sure, as society moved towards accepting pre-marital sex, and now homosexual relations, some who call themselves Christians will do the same. But as far as I know, there's been no significant push by church leadership in any prominent denomination to change the understanding of heterosexual morality. There's no movement in favor of pre-marital sex, or extramarital relationships.

Theres virtually no nuance on slavery. Its fine, has explicit instructions on who to enslave and how, and was explicitely endorsed by Jesus. Even as far as to say if your master breaks the rules you still cant leave.

You can try to say Christianity softened slavery or something but history says otherwise.

Maybe it will take longer on homosexuality, but it will happen. Also theres lots of Christians like Snipa who pick and choose what they agree with and throw everything else out.

Leadership that doesnt get with the times is eventually expunged. Were only about 50 years out from the sexual revolution of the 60s, so give it more time.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Mar 5 2019 09:08am

Please provide proof of your claim. The events of the New Testament occurred in the Roman Empire. Slavery was an every day fact of life. While there are certain references made to slaves, you will need to provide proof that Jesus of Nazareth "explicitly endorsed slavery".

Further, the Bible does not have any instructions on who to enslave or how. The only reference I can find regarding who or how, based on a look at literally every verse in the bible that refers to slavery, was in Leviticus. And it outlined how to redeem a family member if they sold themselves into slavery, and that if you were to purchase slaves, it must be from lands around you, you must not use the people of Israel as property. I see no reference to enslaving people at all, outside of people voluntarily selling themselves into slavery. Please expand on your alleged point.

You ARE correct in that the bible does instruct slaves to honor and respect their masters, even bad masters. Sound advice, at the time. The alternative was being crucified.

I believe you are confusing Christianity with Islam again.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Mar 5 2019 09:26am

We discussed slavery in the Bible some weeks ago, so I'm not going to repeat what I said. I disagree with your characterization. It's just absurd to say that the Bible's view on slavery isn't nuanced.

I'm sure more and more people going forward who identify as Christian will fold on homosexual relations. Churches may continue to split on the issue, but it will never be universally condemned like slavery, because the homosexual issue isn't nuanced in the Bible. There will always be a strong percentage of people identifying as Christian who will hold to orthodox teaching.

How to treat them
You can buy a fellow Israelite but you have to let him go after 7 years. If you give him a wife while he is in your service though, he has to leave his wife and children behind or stay with you forever as your property.
If you beat your slave and destroy his eye you have to let him go free, but you don't get punished. If you beat your slave such that he doesn't immediately die, you dn't get punished. So taking them out of town and beating them to an inch of their lives and leaving them there is fine, as long as everybody doesn't see him die the same day.
If you hurt somebody who isn’t a slave, eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. If you destroy a slave’s eye, you let him go free. This is the same chapter that said you can beat them as long as they don’t die the same day from his injuries. So the only way to get punished for mistreating your slaves is if they die immediately. Otherwise the worst that can happen is you lose a slave.
If a bull gores a person then you are put to death for negligent death of that person. However if its just a slave you have to reimburse the owner for the cost of the slave.

Exodus 21
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free without paying anything. 3If he arrived alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrived with a wife, she is to leave with him. 4If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children; I do not want to go free,’ 6then his master is to bring him before the judges. And he shall take him to the door or doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he shall serve his master for life."

"20If a man strikes his manservant or maidservant with a rod, and the servant dies by his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21However, if the servant gets up after a day or two, the owner shall not be punished, since the servant is his property."

...
26“An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.
...
28“If a bull gores a man or woman to death, the bull is to be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. 29If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull is to be stoned and its owner also is to be put to death. 30However, if payment is demanded, the owner may redeem his life by the payment of whatever is demanded. 31This law also applies if the bull gores a son or daughter. 32If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels f of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death.


Indentured servants are to come from your own people. God has a problem with Israelites being slaves (remember, unless you give them a wife and kid and the man agrees to become a full slave), but has no problem with others being enslaved.
Lev 25
"39“ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 44Your male and female slaves shall come from the nations around you; from them you may purchase slaves. 45You may also purchase them from the foreigners residing among you or their clans living among you who are born in your land. These may become your property. 46You may leave them to your sons after you to inherit as property; you can make them slaves for life.

If you were a slave and became a Christian you have a duty to keep being a slave unless you see an opportunity to gain your freedom. This can be interpreted as "If you see a chance to run, run away from slavery" or "if you can buy your freedom, or somebody offers to buy your freedom, take it". I'm inclined to believe the second one, since the terms for how to buy freedom for your fellow man was laid out in previous verses.
Corinthians 7
"Regardless, each one should lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is what I prescribe in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man still uncircumcised when called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commandments is what matters.

If you're a slave, obey your master even if he breaks the rules on how slaves should be treated because you will get your reward in heaven. Slave masters, be nice to your slaves, but if you aren't they still aren't allowed to leave.
Ephesians 6
"5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."


Slaves should consider their masters worthy of respect. Remember, even if your master doesn’t follow the second part of the rule you don’t get to leave. You have to take it on the chin because you will be rewarded in heaven.
1 Tim 6
"1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves."

I was wrong in that Jesus doesn’t explicitly defend slavery, I was under the impression that the Ephesians quote was Jesus talking when it apparently wasn’t. However there are several instances where Jesus uses slaves as a parable, and never mentions a word against slavery, and can be said to implicitly endorse it since he does say “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

Notice that heaven and earth still exist. Well…. At least Earth does.



The best you could do in that case was to say that the slave master relationship wasn't meaningful in a spiritual sense. It was definitely on the weaker side of apologetics I've heard on this subject. There might be some nuance to the spiritual side of it, but the fact that the Bible explicitely says slavery is fine, tells you how to carry it out, and defines slaves as property is unassailable.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Mar 5 2019 10:47am

Ah! Time to conflate! I get where you're headed, Thor. So let's see, you still have not proven anywhere where it details who to enslave, or how to enslave them. Would you care to try again? For your viewing pleasure though:

Slavery is the full, lifelong ownership of another human being. They are your property, and you can do with them as you will, up to and including taking their life. Slaves have no choice. They are what they are, and were (and are) typically branded. Slaves were usually prisoners of war, enemies of the government, people captured in raids, or the children of other slaves.

Indentured Servitude is the act of one person selling THEMSELVES to the service of another human being, in order that when their period of servitude is over, they either gain that wealth, or they have gained new skills, or, as in most cases, so that during their servitude, their families are covered. In some cases, if one person has harmed the other, the courts of the day may order indentured servitude to pay off the debt incurred as a result of that harm. Either way, this is in no way slavery. So your attempt to show it as proof that the Bible specifies who to enslave and how to enslave them is completely false.

The fact is, mate, that slavery existed throughout the entire Biblical era. There was no time during the history it claims to record that there wasn't slavery. When you go through and read its verses, the only way it addresses slavery is to instruct you on proper treatment of slaves so as not to commit a sin during your ownership, and what to do if you are a slave. The ONLY argument you could make for the Bible promoting slave is that slavery itself was not considered a sin. But that is far more applicable to the old testament, aka Judaism, rather than the new testament, aka Christianity. The new testament actively discourages ownership of slaves. It encourages killing anyone who attempts to capture a slave. It encourages not returning slaves to their masters and giving them shelter if you find yourself in possession of them. There are a couple of verses that mention that masters should treat their slaves gently, but I would consider these outliers in the new testament. Due to the commonality of slavery during those times, any active attempts to directly say slavery is evil would have actively alienated a large group of the most powerful and influential people at the time. However, it does come right out and state that those who capture and trade in slavery (Slavers, as in, that's their livelihood, capturing and selling slaves) are evil.

Regarding Jesus and his parables mentioning slavery, yeah. Because slaves existed, and still do. And many followers of Jesus were slaves. He was providing comfort to them, by allowing that they could find a spot in his heaven as well. To say that he even implicitly endorsed slavery is equally as wrong. You do not have to endorse something to acknowledge it's existence. I acknowledge that slavery currently exists throughout Africa and the Middle East. I clearly do NOT endorse that fact. By the same note, I would agree with nearly all advice given in the Bible towards the slaves alive today. It's great advice. Certainly better to serve well and hope to be well treated than to be stoned to death or covered in diesel and lit on fire.

LDS are somewhere near the top of the list to get the bullet when the glorious revolution comes.

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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

Problem solved. Read a fucking book. I recommend starting with the bible... if you actually read it you might not be so enamoured with it's philosophy.

Ow, too much edge. I'm bleeding out.

Have you been learning from inky?

Interesting post. Who here said there's no slavery in the Bible? Even your wiki page doesn't indicate that it's okay to enslave others. It tries to make a strange inference that "because it doesn't say you can't enslave a non hebrew, that means you can! Ha!" That's even shakier reasoning considering:

Exodus 24:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession."

1 Timothy 1:9-10 "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"

Note that "Slaver" and "Slave Trader" are synonyms for those who actively enslave people and make their livelihoods selling slaves. So, once again, nowhere in the bible does it condone enslavement. And it does actively condemn slavers. So yeah. I'm not sure what you're trying to add here.

And why would I be enamored of the bible's philosphy? My argument is that the bible is rock hard solid on it's views regarding alternative lifestyles. Therefore expecting alternative lifestyles to be allowed into church leadership is a far-flung thought. In fact, going on the timothy verses above, it seems the Bible rather directly condemns both slave traders and alternative lifestyles.

As I ALSO said before, there is nothing to prevent those who lead alternative lifestyles from breaking off and forming their own congregation, or even denomination in the church. Why not? Protestants have been breaking off over issues of dogma for quite some time now.