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Apr 11 2019 01:15pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Apr 10 2019 12:36pm)


I didn't realize Wikipedia was this bad.

Aside from linguistic technicalities, I'm not even sure how you make an argument that the Trump campaign wasn't spied on.

This post was edited by bogie160 on Apr 11 2019 01:20pm
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Apr 11 2019 01:36pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 11 2019 02:15pm)
I didn't realize Wikipedia was this bad.

Aside from linguistic technicalities, I'm not even sure how you make an argument that the Trump campaign wasn't spied on.


When Hannity and Trump say the campaign was spied on, do you think they are talking about authorized, lawful surveillance? Do you think anyone who watches Fox News think they mean authorized, lawful surveillance?

Let's stop playing stupid.
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Apr 11 2019 02:00pm
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 11 2019 01:36pm)
When Hannity and Trump say the campaign was spied on, do you think they are talking about authorized, lawful surveillance? Do you think anyone who watches Fox News think they mean authorized, lawful surveillance?

Let's stop playing stupid.


I'm not sure why you're hung up on the semantic distinction between 'spying' and 'surveillance', as if they aren't colloquially if not literally synonyms.
But its also suggesting a false dichotomy between malicious politically motivated spying on a campaign and authorized, lawful surveillance- when the past 3 years have demonstrated over and over and over again that the lines between lawful authority and malicious political influence are blurred beyond any distinction. When those in charge can manufacture bogus evidence to give themselves plausible deniability to conduct a campaign of wiretapping a political opponent, frothing at the mouth with their political vendetta and conspiring with one another about how best to abuse their authority- then its not an excuse if they technically had legal authority. When the ringleaders get busted for crossing the line and abusing their office and leaking and lying about it, when we find out after extensive review that there was no 'there' there, when we see a culture of political corruptness so endemic that it ousted the whole top leadership of the FBI for ethics violations- the difference between 'spying' and 'surveillence' is not black and white.
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Apr 11 2019 02:23pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Apr 11 2019 03:00pm)
I'm not sure why you're hung up on the semantic distinction between 'spying' and 'surveillance', as if they aren't colloquially if not literally synonyms.
But its also suggesting a false dichotomy between malicious politically motivated spying on a campaign and authorized, lawful surveillance- when the past 3 years have demonstrated over and over and over again that the lines between lawful authority and malicious political influence are blurred beyond any distinction. When those in charge can manufacture bogus evidence to give themselves plausible deniability to conduct a campaign of wiretapping a political opponent, frothing at the mouth with their political vendetta and conspiring with one another about how best to abuse their authority- then its not an excuse if they technically had legal authority. When the ringleaders get busted for crossing the line and abusing their office and leaking and lying about it, when we find out after extensive review that there was no 'there' there, when we see a culture of political corruptness so endemic that it ousted the whole top leadership of the FBI for ethics violations- the difference between 'spying' and 'surveillence' is not black and white.


I think I've made clear why I'm hung up on the word... it's a loaded term.

I take your point in general... but as usual, I don't think some of your characterizations are fair. Just for fun, what does the bold refer to.

This post was edited by IceMage on Apr 11 2019 02:36pm
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Apr 11 2019 02:40pm
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 11 2019 02:23pm)
I think I've made clear why I'm hung up on the word... it's a loaded term.

I take your point in general... but as usual, I don't think some of your characterizations are fair. Just for fun, what does the bold refer to.


what other bogus evidence was manufactured and then used to justify wiretapping trump?
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Apr 11 2019 02:44pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Apr 11 2019 03:40pm)
what other bogus evidence was manufactured and then used to justify wiretapping trump?


You've lost me.
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Apr 11 2019 05:18pm
Quote (Ghot @ 11 Apr 2019 21:06)


Maybe you Americans should pay more attention to what's going on in other parts of the world from time to time. ^_^
Here in Europe, we've been dealing with this exact issue for 4+ years, it has really been discussed to death.

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Apr 11 2019 05:37pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Apr 11 2019 07:18pm)
Maybe you Americans should pay more attention to what's going on in other parts of the world from time to time. ^_^
Here in Europe, we've been dealing with this exact issue for 4+ years, it has really been discussed to death.



Well we thought about that, but then realized that Europe seemed to be losing the battle... no offense.
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Apr 11 2019 05:44pm
Quote (IceMage @ Apr 11 2019 02:44pm)
You've lost me.


the steele dossier
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Apr 11 2019 05:45pm
Quote (Ghot @ 12 Apr 2019 01:37)
Well we thought about that, but then realized that Europe seemed to be losing the battle... no offense.


That our politicians arent following up (yet) doesnt mean that we havent worked out all the relevant arguments and weighed them against one another.
Furthermore, looking at Europe can also tell you which policies are NOT working, so even Europe's shortcomings can save you crucial time if you learn from them.
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