d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Official Joe Biden 2020 Thread
Prev12812822832842851037Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 54,184
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Dec 8 2020 04:08pm
Quote (thundercock @ 8 Dec 2020 22:48)
A plurality party of 30% isn't that big of a deal. You just form a coalition depending on the direction you want to go. In America, our coalitions are fairly static and occur during the primaries.


Except that these coalitions never actually change direction, after every election, we're getting more of the same. :rolleyes:
Essentially, in the U.S., the political status quo is preserved via hyperpolarization, while it is preserved by excessive depolarization in Germany.

Other countries in Europe have similar problems btw. It took Italy almost 2 decades to get rid of Berlusconi. Spain's and Belgiums politics are perpetually gridlocked by petty, parochial interests. France's political system inches closer and closer to the breaking point with every subsequent election, the UK got brought to the breaking point by Brexit. Poland has the same hyperpolarization as in America. The Netherlands have a dozen parties between 8 and 20% and require 5-party abominations to form coalition governments. Simply put, the state of politics in Europe is not as different and not as much better as it might seem from across the pond.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Dec 8 2020 04:09pm
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Dec 8 2020 04:11pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Dec 8 2020 03:22pm)
Proportional representation has its problems too. For example, it can lead to situations where the government party sits at something like 30% of the vote, yet it's realistically impossible to actually vote this party out of government. (This was the situation in Germany before covid.)
Fun fact: from the foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany in 1949, it took almost half a century, until 1998, before a government was voted out of office. Over this timespan of 49 years, there were only two occasions on which power fundamentally swung from right to left and then back again based on one of the parties of the governing coaltion being replaced.

Imho, an instant runoff system like in Australia is quite a good system which allows for the emergence of new parties and for voters to express their dissatisfaction with the major parties.


Holding 30% of the votes isn't insignificant. Unless virtually all the rest want them gone I don't think they should be able to be removed if they were instated with other parties in coalition.
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Dec 8 2020 04:14pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Dec 8 2020 02:08pm)
Except that these coalitions never actually change direction, after every election, we're getting more of the same. :rolleyes:
Essentially, in the U.S., the political status quo is preserved via hyperpolarization, while it is preserved by excessive depolarization in Germany.

Other countries in Europe have similar problems btw. It took Italy almost 2 decades to get rid of Berlusconi. Spain's and Belgiums politics are perpetually gridlocked by petty, parochial interests. France's political system inches closer and closer to the breaking point with every subsequent election, the UK got brought to the breaking point by Brexit. Poland has the same hyperpolarization as in America. The Netherlands have a dozen parties between 8 and 20% and require 5-party abominations to form coalition governments. Simply put, the state of politics in Europe is not as different and not as much better as it might seem from across the pond.


I'm not familiar with European nations and their faults. Is there something pressing in Germany that needs to be addressed that the majority of people want? Sometimes more of the same is a good thing because it shows stability.
Member
Posts: 49,289
Joined: Jun 18 2006
Gold: 11.77
Dec 8 2020 04:19pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/secretary-defense/617330/

Biden op-ed on appointing Lloyd Austin to Secretary of Defense.
Member
Posts: 54,184
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Dec 8 2020 04:29pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 8 Dec 2020 23:11)
Holding 30% of the votes isn't insignificant. Unless virtually all the rest want them gone I don't think they should be able to be removed if they were instated with other parties in coalition.

The problem is not with being unable to remove the 30% party from the government coalition altogether - but when there is no hope of replacing the chancellor/head of government no matter which coalition is formed after the election, that's an issue.

Quote (thundercock @ 8 Dec 2020 23:14)
I'm not familiar with European nations and their faults. Is there something pressing in Germany that needs to be addressed that the majority of people want? Sometimes more of the same is a good thing because it shows stability.

We have too much stability, leading to stagnation, a lack of reforms and progress, and a continuation of policies which have already been proven to just not work. Furthermore, the climate of depolarization causes important issues and conflicts to be swept under the rug instead of being argued out.

Everyone was sick and tired of Adenauer, it still took many more years before he was replaced. Everyone was sick and tired of Kohl, his own party was already planning a coup against him in 1988 - he still hung in there for 10 more years before being voted out in 1998. Large swaths of the country were sick and tired of Merkel, she still managed to remain in office for 16 years and could probably get another 4 if she hadnt decided to step down after her current term.

I really envy America for the 22nd amendment/the limitation of presidents to two terms.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Dec 8 2020 04:29pm
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Dec 8 2020 04:36pm
Quote (IceMage @ Dec 8 2020 02:19pm)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/secretary-defense/617330/

Biden op-ed on appointing Lloyd Austin to Secretary of Defense.


The operational expertise is the most convincing thing to me. I know a lot of people are upset about Flournoy and she would be better from a vision standpoint. However, the primary objective at the moment is operational efficacy and no one is better for the job than Austin.
Member
Posts: 54,184
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Dec 8 2020 04:40pm
Quote (IceMage @ 8 Dec 2020 23:19)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/secretary-defense/617330/

Biden op-ed on appointing Lloyd Austin to Secretary of Defense.


A decent article, except for this section:
Quote
When the Islamic State emerged as a terrorist threat in Iraq and Syria, endangering the security of America’s people and allies, President Obama and I turned to Austin, who then led U.S. Central Command. He designed and executed the campaign that ultimately beat back ISIS, helping to build a coalition of partners and allies from more than 70 countries who worked together to overcome a common enemy.


That's revisionist history. ISIS and the islamist-dominated Syrian opposition were close to overrunning the Assad regime in the summer of 2015. They were only pushed back when the Russians brought in actual boots on the ground. It was the Russian intervention which turned the tide of the Syrian civil war. And it were the Kurds who bore the brunt of the fight against ISIS, who stopped their expansion and lead the charge during the campaign to reconquer ISIS territory. The US only got significantly involved in the campaign against ISIS when the decisive battles had already been won.
Member
Posts: 54,184
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Dec 8 2020 04:45pm
Quote (thundercock @ 8 Dec 2020 23:36)
The operational expertise is the most convincing thing to me. I know a lot of people are upset about Flournoy and she would be better from a vision standpoint. However, the primary objective at the moment is operational efficacy and no one is better for the job than Austin.


Flournoy convinced Obama to intervene in Libya, which was an unmitigated disaster. I dont really know why so many people have a high opinion of her. From the little information I have, Austin seems a far better choice.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Dec 8 2020 05:05pm
Member
Posts: 49,289
Joined: Jun 18 2006
Gold: 11.77
Dec 8 2020 04:50pm
https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey/status/1336424386551746571

Quote
The reality is that if Austin is granted waiver, then the presumption moving forward will be that waivers are customary. Already we see the question being framed as "Why give Mattis a waiver but not Austin?" Next time it will be "Why Mattis and Austin but not this person?"

Instead of members of congress being expected to justify a vote for an extraordinary waiver, they will be expected to justify their refusals to grant waivers. Enshrining a norm in statute does nothing if Congress doesn't actually defend it.


The actual proposition Biden is advancing is that presidents should be able to pick the person they feel is the best candidate for the job and the Senate should confirm qualified candidates and securing waivers should be ordinary, not extraordinary.

It isn't a crazy position to take. ( I don't agree with it, but there are reasonable arguments.) But we (and Congress) should be clear eyed about the choice being made, which is not a vote to grant one waiver for one person, but instead an agreement to fundamentally alter a norm.

To be clear, the norm being altered here wouldn't be "civilian control of military." It would be the presumption of 7 years as minimum distance from service. But if the past four years have taught us anything, it's that these ecosystems are far more fragile than we recognized.


Solid points.

Congress should still grant the waiver in my opinion, but Biden deserves criticism for effectively solidifying the end of this norm/law.

This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 8 2020 05:15pm
Member
Posts: 49,289
Joined: Jun 18 2006
Gold: 11.77
Dec 8 2020 05:11pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Dec 8 2020 05:45pm)
Flournoy convinced Obama to intervene in Libya, which was an unmitigated disaster. I dont really know why so many people have a high opinion of her. From the little information I have, Austin seems a far better choice.


Putting together a coalition of allies and having the backing of a UN security council vote strikes me as the way the US should handle most interventions. Obama acknowledged that the planning for the aftermath was the biggest mistake of his presidency... but I think non-interventionists act as if these decisions are somehow easy calls, when tens or hundreds of thousands of lives are potentially on the line.

Although from her Wikipedia page:

Quote
In 2011, Flournoy, then Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, helped persuade President Obama to intervene militarily in Libya, despite opposition from members of Congress and key White House advisors, such as Joe Biden, Vice President; Tom Donilon, National Security Advisor; and Robert Gates, Defense Secretary.


This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 8 2020 05:13pm
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev12812822832842851037Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll