Quote (toyake @ Dec 5 2021 07:40am)
Why do you believe that that separation is immoral? Do you hold the same view for all natural urges?
If it's chilly out is it immoral to forgo a jacket? Is fasting immoral?
Was it immoral for God to sacrifice his son to save the souls of sinners? Is that not committing an immoral act so that a greater good may come of it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_theology_of_sexualityQuote (fender @ Dec 5 2021 07:47am)
stop lying. i don't want YOU to do anything. you are entitled to your religious beliefs. judges and politicians, however, should not make laws to pander to them - not in a secular state. it's incredibly dishonest of you to repeatedly misrepresent that, in order to portray yourself as a victim. it's not a difficult distinction, i know you understand it.
you should be well aware that there are plenty of people, in fact a vast majority, who disagree with you on abortion. they value a woman's right to self-determination over the rights of a fetus, and there are plenty of good medical, legal, social, and moral reasons for that, many of which i'm sure you are familiar with, even though you obviously reject them.
what it comes down to is that you feel that your specific religious views are morally superior, and should therefore be made into law. the first part you're entitled to, the second part should not happen in a secular state.
courts full of religious zealots (appointed by presidents who lost the popular vote by millions btw), manipulating the law to reflect the moral and religious beliefs of a minority, is not following the secular principle, and also fundamentally undemocratic.
fun fact: i grew up in a catholic family, was a catholic myself (until i developed critical thinking), but despite most of my extended family being catholics (and generally against abortion, like myself), i don't know of anyone entitled enough to assume that their religious beliefs should determine the lives and choices of strangers - at least not openly. the reason i'm telling you this is because i noticed how you repeatedly point to THE catholic teaching, making it sound like you're not fully responsible for your views, like you had no choice because at some point in your life you committed to that specific denomination.
obviously there's no reasoning with religious fundamentalists in terms of morals, the only thing i can hope you take away from this is that your beliefs should not be forced on others. you don't live in a theocracy (yet)...
I don't see that as a meaningful distinction. You now say I can vote my moral conscience, which is influenced by my religious beliefs, but those elected to public office can't. They have to put aside their moral positions, while non-believers, because they don't have organized religious beliefs, don't. It sounds like a violation of religious freedom. Why do you want to oppress us?
There's plenty of areas where my moral positions(informed by religious belief) shouldn't be enforced by the state. Contraception should not be made illegal for instance. I value a free society where people can make a variety of choices. But protecting human life is the most basic duty of the state, so obviously abortion should be illegal.
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Dec 5 2021 12:27pm)
This may be the single dumbest position you hold lol
no u
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Dec 5 2021 12:36pm)
If you look back you will realize you haven't discussed the topic... at all. You've preached about abortion and actively pivoted the conversation away from the subject whenever possible.
That little bouncer is doing a great job.
The government is not in the business of legislating morality. If it was we wouldn't value freedom. We would have the government in all of our bedrooms. Government legislating morality and government respecting freedoms are fundamnetally antithetical.
The topic of abortion has numerous sub-topics.
Again, you're acting as if political issues don't have moral content. They do. Your moral positions influence how you vote.
Quote (thundercock @ Dec 5 2021 01:08pm)
There's a reason why Pope Benedict effectively supported the use of condoms for HIV infected people in Africa:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/europe/24pope.html. At some point, even an organization as rigid as the Catholic Church, came to realize that they were doing more harm than good on this specific issue. In addition, the Church also said somewhat recently that you should not try and convert Jews.
Anyway, I think that we would have to abolish ALL forms of sex education (besides abstinence) since the Catholic Church is against sex outside of marriage. You would also have to be against Medicare/Medicaid/VA from covering birth control, sex change operations, etc. Then there's the balance of national security, pressing charges in criminal/civil court, etc. There's a whole litany of issues where if we went the Catholic route, society would end up worse. I suggest you read up on how Catholic SCOTUS justices handle the balance as well as Church teaching on living in a secular society. I think if we take your policy approaches when it comes to abortion, you have to concede that you're going to end up with MORE abortions. That's fine if you want to be ideologically pure but I find that repulsive since I'm a pragmatist.
I can't read that article, but I think I found what you're talking about. I don't believe the Pope was effectively supporting the use of condoms in Africa, but even if you argue he was, it's based on the first-order effect of prevention of a deadly disease, while giving condoms to high schoolers is obviously for contraceptive use.
Kids grow up and get married, right? Why would it be wrong to offer sex education? Catholics should pick their battles wisely because we live in a secular society, but if some of these issues are put to a referendum, I'm voting based on my moral conscience. If someone wants birth control they can pay for it themselves, unless the medication is being used for a legit reason.