Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 13 2018 05:18pm)

NATO to the Europeans is more about feeling safe than actual defense. no one fucks with you because we pumped up the weapons so high no one would bother trying. but as a result Europeans can't look at NATO and say "this saved us X, Y, and Z times."

i'm of the mind that Russian expansion and Chinese expansion, while still an issue, are something that NATO might not be best designed to handle. But i still think that the EU should buy it's weapons, even if they will use them without US help, to maintain the alliance. The US-EU alliance is keeping russia at bay as much as the weapons themselves. they know we can get an aircraft carrier there fast, and jets even faster.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 13 2018 10:19am)

you wrote:


yes, nato is not necessarily needed, and there are plenty of arguments to support this view. but no, the fact that it has almost never been used since it was created is NOT one of those, is NOT a valid evidence for the nato being obsolete. which is exactly what you were saying in your 11:02am post, and I was arguing against the notion of this particular post of yours. therefore, not a strawman!

we agree on the nato not being needed (anymore?) in its current form.

Quote (EndlessSky @ Nov 13 2018 09:53am)

There is no evidence circumstancial or otherwise to support your hypothesis.

Quote (ofthevoid @ 13 Nov 2018 17:16)

The Russia threat has been overblown for the last 30 years. To invade and have active wars and occupying armies is extremely expensive. It’s been a very successful and profitable campaign by the intelligence communities & defense companies and military cabals to use Russia as the gift that keeps on giving.

Quote (thesnipa @ 13 Nov 2018 17:21)

sorry but it's still a strawman imo, my post to endless was in response to this:



that being that there is, in a literal sense, no evidence. there is of course some evidence. evidence =/= proof, and evidence alone doesn't make an argument valid or correct. There's evidence we faked the moon landing, for example.

Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 13 2018 05:18pm)

But i still think that the EU should buy it's weapons

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 13 2018 05:31pm)

My personal opinion is that Europe should build up and/or maintain some autonomy when it comes to arms industry. We shouldnt be completely reliant on american weapons, but we are still allies and dont have to strive for complete autarky either.

Quote (Knoppie @ 13 Nov 2018 17:28)

Wait..

the discussion is mostly where we should buy it from..
Should that be US made according to the logic within the post ?

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 13 2018 10:27am)

whatever, lets not split hairs over this. I think we agree that the NATO is not the best way of tackling the present-day geostrategical threats we face, and therefore should be reformed/reshaped.

Quote (Knoppie @ Nov 13 2018 10:28am)

Wait..

the discussion is mostly where we should buy it from..
Should that be US made according to the logic within the post ?

Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 13 2018 05:31pm)

NATO is an agreement to buy X amount of protection. I think the market should be free, where there are no requirements to buy X amount. And i think France and the EU should choose, voluntarily and not because of a legal agreement, to buy from the US. because Chinese tech is filled with Spyware at best and is cheaply made at worst, and buying from Russia is of course foolish. You could make your own, but the loss in money you'll incur by doing the research and development yourself would be astronomical. and by not buying from us you're signalling to the world the alliance itself is on hold. To me, the agreement is the issue, not the relationship.

Quote (Knoppie @ 13 Nov 2018 17:34)

Well, with the alliance I'd say the US could buy a bit more EU made arms.. not doing so gives an awkward balance to the alliance we have.

Imo you can't really expect the EU to buy from the US when our ally doesn't buy from us ?

Quote (Knoppie @ Nov 13 2018 10:34am)

Well, with the alliance I'd say the US could buy a bit more EU made arms.. not doing so gives an awkward balance to the alliance we have.

Imo you can't really expect the EU to buy from the US when the US doesn't buy from us ?