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Oct 8 2023 01:21pm
Shouldnt have been talking shit


/thread

I am referring to all the Hamas dead people not the Israelies

This post was edited by Crunkt on Oct 8 2023 01:22pm
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Oct 8 2023 01:23pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Oct 8 2023 10:57am)
What does a long term solution look like? There cannot be a two state solution after this, obviously. Gazans can't be expelled, where would they go? Cant fit 2 million in the Sinai. I think the DMZ is the logical outcome. Maybe the transfer of utility responsibilities to egypt and palestinians. That can work for Gaza, not the west bank


How do you feel about the Israeli settlements into Palestine? I've always wondered if there's unlikely to be a two-state solution because the idea itself is untenable, or if Israel's settlements and occupation of land inhabited by Palestinians undermines the entire idea to begin with.
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Oct 8 2023 01:31pm
Its pretty awful all around. There are innocent Israeli families that are suffering horribly and there are going to be many innocent Palestinian families that are going to suffer. Fuck Hamas and fuck Iran for sponsoring this.
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Oct 8 2023 01:43pm
Quote (tman65ky @ Oct 8 2023 08:31pm)
Its pretty awful all around. There are innocent Israeli families that are suffering horribly and there are going to be many innocent Palestinian families that are going to suffer. Fuck Hamas and fuck Iran for sponsoring this.


True and fuck Israel's continued policy of apartheid.
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Oct 8 2023 01:52pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ 8 Oct 2023 21:03)
My idf friend aviva says the plan is scorched earth.


Same than in 2014, Ukraine war is a great diversion for an asymetric massacre / reprisal. But I hope the logic will not follow.
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Oct 8 2023 02:02pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Oct 8 2023 02:23pm)
How do you feel about the Israeli settlements into Palestine? I've always wondered if there's unlikely to be a two-state solution because the idea itself is untenable, or if Israel's settlements and occupation of land inhabited by Palestinians undermines the entire idea to begin with.


The Saudi deal that Israel agreed to and really stood to benefit from really made the two state solution a lot more realistic
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Oct 8 2023 02:09pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Oct 8 2023 02:23pm)
How do you feel about the Israeli settlements into Palestine? I've always wondered if there's unlikely to be a two-state solution because the idea itself is untenable, or if Israel's settlements and occupation of land inhabited by Palestinians undermines the entire idea to begin with.


Its a long standing prohibitive issue for resolving the west bank. Its not an issue for the Gaza Strip and Hamas. If the two-state solution has ossified because Hamas and Fatah/PA couldn't be reconciled, than if anything this latest development makes it more likely, because there's a theoretical world where the Gaza Strip is cleared out, some population moved to the West Bank, some to the Sinai, others as refugees, and the Palestinians are given their "one state" with the only obstacle left being the settlements that would need to be evacuated. But that's still a pipe dream because Israel could never imaginably have its security guarantee with the west bank either.

Its why I think the DMZ outcome is actually likely, not just in the realm of possibility. I think the following will all wind up being true:
  • Gaza and the West Bank will continue to be occupied by Palestinians and are too dense and populated and unwanted to be displaced
  • Israel cannot return to the status quo of soft borders after this war
  • The merchant will have his pound of flesh


What actually realistic scenario would satisfy those conditions? Imagine Israel besieges Gaza for a time, declares the armistice lines void, but doesn't change the status quo of 95% of land and the dual citizen / temple mount but rather simply annexes the eastern fields of Gaza to increase the buffer for Sderot, then abandons the closer enclaves and turns the entire strip around Gaza into a heavily fortified DMZ with shoot-on-sight orders. Palestinians could still impotently hurl missiles against the iron dome, which was never a real threat, but incursions like this would be impossible- even if they could somehow fly another legion of paratroopers on gliders, they wouldn't be able to bring in mechanized units or return to Gaza and would be easily shot down over mien fields. Water utilities for Gaza would be the sticking point, as its totally reliant on Israeli humanitarianism right now.

Israel didn't just sit back after the Yom Kippur attacks and brush them off and return to their status quo. I don't think a Hamas ruled Gaza with highways into Israel is going to be tenable after 2023.
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Oct 8 2023 02:29pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Oct 8 2023 01:09pm)
Its a long standing prohibitive issue for resolving the west bank. Its not an issue for the Gaza Strip and Hamas. If the two-state solution has ossified because Hamas and Fatah/PA couldn't be reconciled, than if anything this latest development makes it more likely, because there's a theoretical world where the Gaza Strip is cleared out, some population moved to the West Bank, some to the Sinai, others as refugees, and the Palestinians are given their "one state" with the only obstacle left being the settlements that would need to be evacuated. But that's still a pipe dream because Israel could never imaginably have its security guarantee with the west bank either.

Its why I think the DMZ outcome is actually likely, not just in the realm of possibility. I think the following will all wind up being true:
  • Gaza and the West Bank will continue to be occupied by Palestinians and are too dense and populated and unwanted to be displaced
  • Israel cannot return to the status quo of soft borders after this war
  • The merchant will have his pound of flesh


What actually realistic scenario would satisfy those conditions? Imagine Israel besieges Gaza for a time, declares the armistice lines void, but doesn't change the status quo of 95% of land and the dual citizen / temple mount but rather simply annexes the eastern fields of Gaza to increase the buffer for Sderot, then abandons the closer enclaves and turns the entire strip around Gaza into a heavily fortified DMZ with shoot-on-sight orders. Palestinians could still impotently hurl missiles against the iron dome, which was never a real threat, but incursions like this would be impossible- even if they could somehow fly another legion of paratroopers on gliders, they wouldn't be able to bring in mechanized units or return to Gaza and would be easily shot down over mien fields. Water utilities for Gaza would be the sticking point, as its totally reliant on Israeli humanitarianism right now.

Israel didn't just sit back after the Yom Kippur attacks and brush them off and return to their status quo. I don't think a Hamas ruled Gaza with highways into Israel is going to be tenable after 2023.


I ask largely because it seems as though neither Israel nor Palestine/Hamas are making a good-faith effort at a two-state solution. Israel creates a dependency for electricity and water all while expanding illegal settlements into Palestinian land, which displaces many Palestinians and comes with the desecration of various architecture. This angers the Palestinians, and those most-predisposed to the use of violence are likely to find themselves joining groups like Hamas out of a sense of wanting to protect their land and people. Unfortunately, much of the violence that Hamas engages in is not necessarily for the purposes of self-defense and of border security, but out of a perceived desire to eliminate Jewish people from the region and to prevent the normalization of Israel in the region.

The British and the French really fucked up the region and then dipped out. I'm not sure what Israel's gameplan is, but I too don't see a Hamas ruled Gaza being tenable.
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Oct 8 2023 02:55pm
Quote (darksoho @ 8 Oct 2023 20:52)
holy.. you are using reporters "opinion pieces" (such as your second link) from haaretz and talking to me about Amira Hass who is one of the most leftist reporters on the planet ?

my definition is simple, look it in a regular, simply dictionary. not by some reporters who will always write Israel down as the devil himself as their own personal agenda.


so everyone pointing out the FACT (acknowledged by countless international organisations, like the UN, which you apparently "missed" as source...) that israel is stealing and rationing palestinian resources, creating massive shortages and suffering, is just lying in order to portray israel as the devil, and your characterisation of israel being the benevolent angels, generously supplying the savages with the basics for civilisation, something they couldn't even muster themselves, is the real truth, huh?

glad an honest person like you clarified that for everyone...

and that's why it's irrelevant where you're from. if you have an agenda, if you're deliberately misrepresenting reality in order to tell a certain narrative, you're not a reliable source. just putting that here for the hateful bigots who think someone directly involved and emotionally attached is automatically telling the truth (absurd), just because it happens to coincide with their own preconceived notions. i bet if they heard from someone on the palestinian side, they'd dismiss first hand experience as biased propaganda...

Quote
U.N. rights expert: Israel depriving Palestinians of clean water

GENEVA, March 18 (Reuters) - Israel is depriving millions of Palestinians of access to a regular supply of clean water while stripping their land of minerals “in an apparent act of pillage”, a United Nations human rights investigator said on Monday.

Michael Lynk, U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, said that Israel “continues full-steam with settlement expansion” in the West Bank, which the United Nations and many countries deem illegal. There are some 20-25,000 new settlers a year, he said.

He was addressing the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose debate Israel’s delegation boycotted due to what it considers a deep bias against it. “In his latest farcical report, Mr. Lynk stoops to a new low and (accuses) the Jewish State of stealing,” Israel’s mission in Geneva said in a statement to Reuters. It accused Lynk of being a “known Palestinian advocate”.

Israel’s main ally, the United States, quit the 47-member forum last year, also accusing it of an anti-Israel slant.

“In Gaza, the collapse of the coastal aquifer, the only natural source of drinking water in the Strip and now almost entirely unfit for human consumption, is contributing to a significant health crisis among the two million Palestinians living there,” Lynk said.

Despite the withdrawal of Israeli settlers and troops from Gaza in 2005, it has maintained a “hermetic seal of air, sea and land blockade” around the coastal enclave, he said.

An internationally-sponsored $567 million plan has been agreed to address Gaza’s acute shortage of clean water by constructing desalination plants, but analysts say its realisation is years away.

“For nearly five million Palestinians living under occupation, the degradation of their water supply, the exploitation of their natural resources and the defacing of their environment are symptomatic of the lack of any meaningful control they have over their daily lives,” Lynk said. In the West Bank, Israeli quarry companies extract some 17 million tonnes of stone each year, “notwithstanding strict prohibitions in international law against a military power economically exploiting an occupied territory”, Lynk said.

“The Dead Sea and its plentiful natural resources, part of which lies within the occupied Palestinian territory, is off-limits to any Palestinian development while Israeli companies are permitted to harvest the minerals in an apparent act of pillage,” he added.

Israeli authorities have said in the past that Palestinian quarries were ordered shut because they posed safety and environmental risks.

Palestinian Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi called for Israel to halt what he said was theft of Palestinian property.

“Israel must stop this pillaging, what Israel is doing in the occupied territories is very far from its obligations under international law and treaties,” he said. “This is more even than apartheid.”
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Oct 8 2023 03:09pm
Quote (tman65ky @ Oct 8 2023 12:31pm)
Its pretty awful all around. There are innocent Israeli families that are suffering horribly and there are going to be many innocent Palestinian families that are going to suffer. Fuck Hamas and fuck Iran for sponsoring this.


going to suffer? they HAVE been suffering.

Israel is stealing Palestinian resources, gassing their churches and schools, forcing mothers and children to vacate their homes under the penalty of death.

Israel has been destroying these people and they finally fight back and they are the "terrorists"

it's sickening
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