d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Official Political Picture Thread, Continued
Prev1233234235236237951Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 52,226
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,902.00
Jul 6 2022 06:23pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 6 2022 07:12pm)
Shouldn't this be a plus for thorium reactors? :huh:
Less proliferation = less political risks and easier for the current nuclear powers to retain their advantage over the rest of the world.


That was the reason they weren't. There's no good reason now.
Member
Posts: 105,146
Joined: Apr 25 2006
Gold: 10,475.00
Jul 6 2022 06:27pm












Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Jul 6 2022 09:10pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 6 2022 04:39pm)


I wasn't talking about power plants, I was talking about cars. An EV which is charged with coal/oil/gas power doesn't have a better climate balance than ICE cars, so if we ban ICE cars because their greenhouse gas emissions are deemed too high, shouldn't we also ban the charging of EVs with any fossil energy?


Power plants provide the electricity that power the cars...obviously electric vehicles charged by a coal-powered grid is bad.
Member
Posts: 54,174
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 7 2022 07:57am
Quote (thundercock @ 7 Jul 2022 05:10)
Power plants provide the electricity that power the cars...obviously electric vehicles charged by a coal-powered grid is bad.


Okay, but that doesn't answer my question. ;)
If the carbon balance of an EV that is charged with fossil energy is the same as that of an ICE car, while the carbon balance of ICE cars is deemed "bad enough to justify a ban" - wouldn't this imply that fossil-charged EVs should also be considered "ban-worthy", rather than just "bad"?
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Jul 7 2022 08:03am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 7 2022 06:57am)
Okay, but that doesn't answer my question. ;)
If the carbon balance of an EV that is charged with fossil energy is the same as that of an ICE car, while the carbon balance of ICE cars is deemed "bad enough to justify a ban" - wouldn't this imply that fossil-charged EVs should also be considered "ban-worthy", rather than just "bad"?


I think it does because if the power source is banned, EVERYTHING that is powered by said power source would be banned. Cars, homes, office buildings, etc.
Member
Posts: 54,174
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 7 2022 08:15am
Quote (thundercock @ 7 Jul 2022 16:03)
I think it does because if the power source is banned, EVERYTHING that is powered by said power source would be banned. Cars, homes, office buildings, etc.


Sure, but that's not what governments are deciding. No one is foolish enough to genuinely believe that we could cope without any coal/oil/gas power plants. The ban of ICE cars and the subsidies for EVs are based on the hope that the share of renewables in the power grid will grow dramatically over the next 13 years, while there is no solution for the storage problem yet. (A smart grid solution using the batteries of the EV fleet could smooth out the gap between solar production at daytime and demand at night, but it's no solution for the task of cross-seasonal storage or for a stretch of cloudy and windstill days.)

Simply put, European governments are debasing technology and intellectual property worth trillions of dollars, IP which was the bedrock of our industry and wealth, for the vogue notion that it might, perhaps, help the climate - if things go according to plan and there is a big technological breakthrough on storage tech within the next decade. And keep in mind that the only reason the Biden admin doesn't follow suit on this retarded, suicidal course is that they lack the votes.
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Jul 7 2022 09:46am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 7 2022 07:15am)
Sure, but that's not what governments are deciding. No one is foolish enough to genuinely believe that we could cope without any coal/oil/gas power plants. The ban of ICE cars and the subsidies for EVs are based on the hope that the share of renewables in the power grid will grow dramatically over the next 13 years, while there is no solution for the storage problem yet. (A smart grid solution using the batteries of the EV fleet could smooth out the gap between solar production at daytime and demand at night, but it's no solution for the task of cross-seasonal storage or for a stretch of cloudy and windstill days.)

Simply put, European governments are debasing technology and intellectual property worth trillions of dollars, IP which was the bedrock of our industry and wealth, for the vogue notion that it might, perhaps, help the climate - if things go according to plan and there is a big technological breakthrough on storage tech within the next decade. And keep in mind that the only reason the Biden admin doesn't follow suit on this retarded, suicidal course is that they lack the votes.


I can't speak for Europe but that's been a pretty big thing here in America. Back in 2000, half of America's grid was powered by coal. Today, it's less than 25% because we've been subsidizing renewals, transitioning to natural gas (which burns cleaner than ICE vehicles btw), etc. In addition, the EPA put in regulations that effectively ban new dirty power plants. We recently had a SCOTUS case regarding EPA regulations on CURRENT power plants but those got tossed. We've successfully lowered our emissions substantially so I don't think you can call it "retarded" and "suicidal" when it's been working. In America, an ICE ban makes total sense.

In your case (EU), a quick glance shows that a little under half of your grid is powered by solid fossil fuels and petroleum based products. From what I'm seeing, new power plants will be cleaner than those two that I listed so ICE bans seem like perfectly reasonable policy.
Member
Posts: 54,174
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 7 2022 11:19am
Quote (thundercock @ 7 Jul 2022 17:46)
I can't speak for Europe but that's been a pretty big thing here in America. Back in 2000, half of America's grid was powered by coal. Today, it's less than 25% because we've been subsidizing renewals, transitioning to natural gas (which burns cleaner than ICE vehicles btw), etc. In addition, the EPA put in regulations that effectively ban new dirty power plants. We recently had a SCOTUS case regarding EPA regulations on CURRENT power plants but those got tossed. We've successfully lowered our emissions substantially so I don't think you can call it "retarded" and "suicidal" when it's been working. In America, an ICE ban makes total sense.

In your case (EU), a quick glance shows that a little under half of your grid is powered by solid fossil fuels and petroleum based products. From what I'm seeing, new power plants will be cleaner than those two that I listed so ICE bans seem like perfectly reasonable policy.

I wasn't calling the transition to cleaner power plants retarded or suicidal! What is retarded and suicidal in my opinion is banning ICE cars and thus debasing one of the pillars of our wealth while it is still doubtful whether EVs, the replacement, will even have a significantly better carbon balance and whether we will be able to build the necessary charging infrastructure.

Regarding the power plants: replacing super-dirty coal with less-dirt natural gas was one of the key ideas of our (EU) energy policy for the past 15 years - but that plan is coming crashing down due to Russia's war in Ukraine and the gas embargos. Unlike North America, Europe is completely unable to self-sustain on natural gas once Russian gas is taken out of the equation. More renewables would still help, but without the corresponding storage technology, there is a hard upper limit to how much of our energy demands we can cover with it. Germany, for example, is producing roughly 40% of its electricity with renewables, and this number could rise to maybe 60% or so, but not any higher as long as renewables are unable to provide base load.

Here's a chart for the energy mix in Germany the last couple of days, the top two are wind (teal) and solar (yellow):


As you can see, solar power is already doing a good job matching demand peaks during the day (at least during summer) . However, if we look at the cross-seasonal track record, the problems with renewables become apparent:
Solar since 2020:

As you can see, the output from solar varies widely over the year, generation during winters is only a fraction of the summer output. Solar might be more reliable in the Southern U.S., say Arizona or SoCal, but in places like New York or Michigan, you'd have the same problem.

Wind since 2020:

This one is more subtle to see, but 2021 was a very wind-strapped year, wind output was 30% (sic!) lower than in 2020.

Simply put, you cannot run a modern, industrialized country on such an unsteady, unreliable power source. Which brings me back to my earlier point that - barring an imminent breakthrough on storage technology - there will be a hard upper limit to how much of a country's energy demand can come from renewables. Hence, chances are that all these EVs will still be charged, at least in part, with fossil energy in 2035. This, in turn, would drastically reduce the gap in carbon footprint between EVs and ICE cars and thus invalidate the main argument for banning ICE cars (and pissing away a significant chunk of our wealth in the process). As of today, it is just not realistic to assume a 100% green/renewable energy mix in 2035.



Hope this helps to clarify where I'm coming from and explain why I'm so agitated by all of this stuff! :santa:
Member
Posts: 35,291
Joined: Aug 17 2004
Gold: 12,730.67
Jul 7 2022 02:39pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 7 2022 10:19am)
I wasn't calling the transition to cleaner power plants retarded or suicidal! What is retarded and suicidal in my opinion is banning ICE cars and thus debasing one of the pillars of our wealth while it is still doubtful whether EVs, the replacement, will even have a significantly better carbon balance and whether we will be able to build the necessary charging infrastructure.

Regarding the power plants: replacing super-dirty coal with less-dirt natural gas was one of the key ideas of our (EU) energy policy for the past 15 years - but that plan is coming crashing down due to Russia's war in Ukraine and the gas embargos. Unlike North America, Europe is completely unable to self-sustain on natural gas once Russian gas is taken out of the equation. More renewables would still help, but without the corresponding storage technology, there is a hard upper limit to how much of our energy demands we can cover with it. Germany, for example, is producing roughly 40% of its electricity with renewables, and this number could rise to maybe 60% or so, but not any higher as long as renewables are unable to provide base load.

Here's a chart for the energy mix in Germany the last couple of days, the top two are wind (teal) and solar (yellow):
https://i.imgur.com/l7Mb8Qz.jpg

As you can see, solar power is already doing a good job matching demand peaks during the day (at least during summer) . However, if we look at the cross-seasonal track record, the problems with renewables become apparent:
Solar since 2020:
https://i.imgur.com/atUCC2A.jpg
As you can see, the output from solar varies widely over the year, generation during winters is only a fraction of the summer output. Solar might be more reliable in the Southern U.S., say Arizona or SoCal, but in places like New York or Michigan, you'd have the same problem.

Wind since 2020:
https://i.imgur.com/Uk5wLeW.jpg
This one is more subtle to see, but 2021 was a very wind-strapped year, wind output was 30% (sic!) lower than in 2020.

Simply put, you cannot run a modern, industrialized country on such an unsteady, unreliable power source. Which brings me back to my earlier point that - barring an imminent breakthrough on storage technology - there will be a hard upper limit to how much of a country's energy demand can come from renewables. Hence, chances are that all these EVs will still be charged, at least in part, with fossil energy in 2035. This, in turn, would drastically reduce the gap in carbon footprint between EVs and ICE cars and thus invalidate the main argument for banning ICE cars (and pissing away a significant chunk of our wealth in the process). As of today, it is just not realistic to assume a 100% green/renewable energy mix in 2035.



Hope this helps to clarify where I'm coming from and explain why I'm so agitated by all of this stuff! :santa:


Help me understand how ICE engines are a source of your wealth. Aren't BMW, Audi, and Mercedes going pretty hard on electric motors and aren't they transitioning at a reasonable pace? Is industrial equipment part of this ban? It's okay for electric vehicles to have SOME fossil energy as long the aggregate emissions are less than what they are currently. Realistically speaking, getting to net zero emissions will be incredibly difficult for the reasons you mentioned. However, ramping up fossil fuel usage when the renewables aren't reaching the necessary output seems reasonable and will be much better for the environment.

War obviously fucks up plans and IMO should be the number 1 priority since it's a danger NOW.
Member
Posts: 27,048
Joined: Dec 21 2007
Gold: 14,569.69
Jul 9 2022 10:19am
LOL still
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1233234235236237951Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll