Quote (Malopox @ 11 Feb 2024 16:53)

1) I’m looking forward to hear your arguments. You have stated that Putin lies when he presents his understanding of what lead up to September 1939 invasion of Poland. Could you please back this statement up with facts? So far you have presented none, while I’ve given you extended answers. Honestly interested in hearing your opinion. It’s good to get a reality check.

2) I believe this is literally what happened in Ukraine in 1940s and is happening again now. You have said that denazification narrative of Putin is a lie and I tried to explain to you with pictures, links and facts that current revisionist national idea being planted in Ukraine centers heavily on reverence of Nazi ideology that is supported by the government, unlike in other countries where Nazi ideas are usually suppressed.

3) World does work according to unwritten rules - it’s called realpolitik. Relationships between governments are akin to an anarchy as there is no effective way of enforcing agreements. The best we could come up with as humanity is UN SC which has its own set of flaws. Once again, you are kindly asked to present your vision as to why you believe Putin is lying here.

5) once again- you said that Ukraine did not have a coup d etat. How would you call a removal of a democratically elected government by force?

6) Did Putin say any of that? I believe you are invoking a red herring steering discussion somewhere else. You claimed an argument is a lie, please back it up.

Quote (Malopox @ Feb 10 2024 11:51pm)

Could you elaborate how those are lies? It’s unclear to me.

1) The events of 1938, particularly the Munich Betrayal and partitioning of Czechoslovakia by Poland to grab Silesia as well as consequent denial of access to USSR to protect Czechoslovakia is quite well documented. Arguably if Poland would not try to ally itself with the Axis and instead joined the Allied coalition against Nazis we would have seen a different outcome of World War 2 as Hitler will not feel strong enough to attack a combined allied force. The problem was that Poland was afraid of “Judeo-Bolshevism” more than they were afraid of the Nazis - hence no alliance was possible. It is also argued that Britain/France wanted Nazis to roll eastward to bleed themselves and Soviets dry. Putin has published a magnum opus about these particular events leading up to September 1939 years ago.

2) Denazification is one of the proclaimed goals and it seems to be progressing as neonazi batallion of Azov is no more and the rest are being dismembered. See eg the following link to Stanford University’s assessment of Azov: https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion . The only difficult part is dealing with neocon historical revisionism of a new Ukranian national identity that centers on revering Nazi war criminals which is displayed publicly by senior officials of Ukraine. This was achieved in Istanbul peace process in April 2022, but subsequently derailed with the help of western leaders once Russians withdrew from Kiev. This is all well documented by multiple parties that were involved (David Arachmia, Naftali Bennett, Erdogan etc)

3) NATO eastward expansion angle has been confirmed through multitude of meeting notes by western diplomats. It is true that indeed no formal agreement exists as it was impossible document to procure legally at the time, however a gentlemen’s agreement/understanding and assurances were maid to ensure USSR/Russia withdraws from Eastern Europe and eg allows reunification of Germany. This has been discussed at length with links to documents in Russia/Ukraine thread. See eg https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article236986765/Nato-Osterweiterung-Archivfund-bestaetigt-Sicht-der-Russen.html

4) This seems like an honest mistake by Putin as a result of speaking for 2 hours without notes. He meant Zelenskys grandfather.

5) I think coup d stay in Ukraine is quite well documented and not disputed by anyone. Democratically elected government was removed by far right nationalists and pro-US government was installed. Coup d etats are not new and have been organized by the CIA all over South America in eg Operation Condor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor . Perhaps in 50 years - once the documents are declassified - we will learn what was the name of this operation.

6) What exactly do you not agree with here. I’m not sure about this reference? Eg freshwater supplies were cut off to starve Crimean people whileRussia hasn’t stopped supplying Ukraine with gas during winters even though they were conducting a military operation in Ukraine.

Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Feb 11 2024 12:59pm)

It is completely the point.

Quote (Santara @ 11 Feb 2024 15:54)

1 - This is revisionist history. Poland seeking territorial claims on Czechoslovakia after Germany did wasn't allying with Germany, it was a settlement of a Czech/Polish dispute. Not only did the Poles oppose USSR intervention in defense of Czechoslovakia for anti-Russian reasons, but they also told the French multiple times that if the French intervened in Czechoslovakia for anti-Nazi reasons, they would assist the French. Clearly, these are not the actions of a country allied with Germany, but instead a country with its own (justified) self-interests.

2 - Claims of "denazification" are just crocodile tears coming from people who are ultranationalist fascists in their own right. People who gobble up this excuse clearly lack perspective.

3 - While NATO expansion into territories that used to suffer under the Russian boot is understandably worrisome to Russia, Russia controls two things that render this expansion irrelevant: a massive nuclear stockpile, and control over its own actions to not behave as an aggressive neighbor. Be a good neighbor, and having NATO on your border isn't a concern.



5 - So does popular support only count when installing a government, but not in removing it? It wasn't a coup d'état so much as a popular revolution against a correctly-perceived Russian puppet. Was the American Revolution a coup? Of course not. King George was still the King of England, and Vladimir Putin is still the dictator of Russia.

6 - People can survive for 3 days without water. 8 years after having the water cut off, the residents of Crimea are still there. Ukraine isn't killing Crimean civilians, they're denying them a convenient source of water. Russia isn't supplying Ukraine with gas, it is supplying other European countries with gas that flows through pipelines that run through Ukraine. And Russia was certainly attacking the Ukrainian electricity grid that rendered whatever gas supplies they had useless (can't run a furnace without electricity).

At the end of the day, Putin is peddling a huge pile of propaganda, and useful idiots are lapping it up.

Quote (Malopox @ 11 Feb 2024 14:53)

1) I’m looking forward to hear your arguments. You have stated that Putin lies when he presents his understanding of what lead up to September 1939 invasion of Poland. Could you please back this statement up with facts? So far you have presented none, while I’ve given you extended answers. Honestly interested in hearing your opinion. It’s good to get a reality check.

2) I believe this is literally what happened in Ukraine in 1940s and is happening again now. You have said that denazification narrative of Putin is a lie and I tried to explain to you with pictures, links and facts that current revisionist national idea being planted in Ukraine centers heavily on reverence of Nazi ideology that is supported by the government, unlike in other countries where Nazi ideas are usually suppressed.

3) World does work according to unwritten rules - it’s called realpolitik. Relationships between governments are akin to an anarchy as there is no effective way of enforcing agreements. The best we could come up with as humanity is UN SC which has its own set of flaws. Once again, you are kindly asked to present your vision as to why you believe Putin is lying here.

5) once again- you said that Ukraine did not have a coup d etat. How would you call a removal of a democratically elected government by force?

6) Did Putin say any of that? I believe you are invoking a red herring steering discussion somewhere else. You claimed an argument is a lie, please back it up.

Quote (Malopox @ Feb 11 2024 10:41am)

1) You just reinforced what Putin has said in his interview. This was my exact question to original poster since this is how I also see the facts (subject to interpretation ofcourse) that has lead up to September 1939 invasion which ^bahgeraur has called a lie. My ask is therefore to explain what he thinks the lie is.

2) Would you say that Waffen SS were heroes to be revered and furthering their goals of racially cleansing nations is a worthy goal?

3) I think you are discounting several hundred years of history between what is now a modern Russia and its neighbors. Having said that - NATO expansion eastward is viewed by Russians as a threat to its existence and “being a good neighbour” in the 1990s has not stopped it.

5) once again - the argument was that there was no coup d etat.Then what did we witness?

The story of popular support is questionable as we know that eg Crimea has willingly joined Russia as they always wanted and voted out on several referendums in the 1990s. Instead we have what we have - a minority supported and headed by far right nationalists has deposed an acting president. The fact that you don’t like Biden or Trump doesn’t give you the right to murder him.

6) once again - the argument was that what was stated was a lie. You agreed that it was not. So what’s the argument?

Quote (BaHgerAUT @ 11 Feb 2024 19:16)

1) Hitler has already described the extermination of Poland’s Slavs and Jews in 1933, retreated from treaties in april 1939 and described that land as "Lebensraum" for the "Master race". It's tiresome to run after someone that lies permanently and tells his "interpretation". It's pretty easy, the invading country is at fault. In Poland 1939 and Ukraine 2014/2022.
2) You have shown one meaningless picture, great story bro.
3) already done, he spoke about promises that nato wouldn't expand. There was never such an agreement – even Gorbachev said so – and in any case, countries join NATO of their own free will. If Putin didn’t want NATO to grow, he shouldn’t declare war on his neighbors. You're again closing your eyes and demand more proof.
5) A Coup d'état is illegal overtake of a country while in ukraine the voted members of the parliament removed Yanokovic. By definition this is no Coup d'état and within the constitution.
6)He said Kyiv started the conflict in Donbas by using its air force against civilians. The conflict began on 12 April 2014 when FSB officer Igor Girkin led ‘separatists’ to seize the town of Sloviansk. Ukraine first used its aviation in response, on 26 May, in the battle for Donetsk Airport

Quote

lies about Ukraine killing their own people on krim

Quote (Santara @ 11 Feb 2024 19:50)

1 - Putin portrayed the Russian decision to invade Poland in WWII as an anti-Nazi defensive move that was justified by Poland allying itself with Germany. The lie is that it was actually Russian imperialism, the justification for which was a fanciful contrivance as demonstrated by Poland's staunch anti-German positions elsewhere. It is perfectly reasonable for a country like Poland, trapped between two imperialist powers, to oppose both of their goals.

2 - No.

3 - Several hundred years of expansionism beginning with the reign of Peter the Great? Being a good neighbor hasn't led to an invasion or attack on Russia. It has led to normalized relations, and even bilateral military training (I've personally engaged in this).

5 - A revolution against a foreign puppet, just like I said in the post you quoted.

6 - No, I agreed it was a lie. Denying a convenient source of water =/= killing its citizens in Crimea.

Quote (BaHgerAUT @ Feb 11 2024 10:16am)

1) Hitler has already described the extermination of Poland’s Slavs and Jews in 1933, retreated from treaties in april 1939 and described that land as "Lebensraum" for the "Master race". It's tiresome to run after someone that lies permanently and tells his "interpretation". It's pretty easy, the invading country is at fault. In Poland 1939 and Ukraine 2014/2022.
2) You have shown one meaningless picture, great story bro.
3) already done, he spoke about promises that nato wouldn't expand. There was never such an agreement – even Gorbachev said so – and in any case, countries join NATO of their own free will. If Putin didn’t want NATO to grow, he shouldn’t declare war on his neighbors. You're again closing your eyes and demand more proof.
5) A Coup d'état is illegal overtake of a country while in ukraine the voted members of the parliament removed Yanokovic. By definition this is no Coup d'état and within the constitution.
6)He said Kyiv started the conflict in Donbas by using its air force against civilians. The conflict began on 12 April 2014 when FSB officer Igor Girkin led ‘separatists’ to seize the town of Sloviansk. Ukraine first used its aviation in response, on 26 May, in the battle for Donetsk Airport