Could you elaborate how those are lies? It’s unclear to me.

1) The events of 1938, particularly the Munich Betrayal and partitioning of Czechoslovakia by Poland to grab Silesia as well as consequent denial of access to USSR to protect Czechoslovakia is quite well documented. Arguably if Poland would not try to ally itself with the Axis and instead joined the Allied coalition against Nazis we would have seen a different outcome of World War 2 as Hitler will not feel strong enough to attack a combined allied force. The problem was that Poland was afraid of “Judeo-Bolshevism” more than they were afraid of the Nazis - hence no alliance was possible. It is also argued that Britain/France wanted Nazis to roll eastward to bleed themselves and Soviets dry. Putin has published a magnum opus about these particular events leading up to September 1939 years ago.

2) Denazification is one of the proclaimed goals and it seems to be progressing as neonazi batallion of Azov is no more and the rest are being dismembered. See eg the following link to Stanford University’s assessment of Azov: https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion . The only difficult part is dealing with neocon historical revisionism of a new Ukranian national identity that centers on revering Nazi war criminals which is displayed publicly by senior officials of Ukraine. This was achieved in Istanbul peace process in April 2022, but subsequently derailed with the help of western leaders once Russians withdrew from Kiev. This is all well documented by multiple parties that were involved (David Arachmia, Naftali Bennett, Erdogan etc)

3) NATO eastward expansion angle has been confirmed through multitude of meeting notes by western diplomats. It is true that indeed no formal agreement exists as it was impossible document to procure legally at the time, however a gentlemen’s agreement/understanding and assurances were maid to ensure USSR/Russia withdraws from Eastern Europe and eg allows reunification of Germany. This has been discussed at length with links to documents in Russia/Ukraine thread. See eg https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article236986765/Nato-Osterweiterung-Archivfund-bestaetigt-Sicht-der-Russen.html

4) This seems like an honest mistake by Putin as a result of speaking for 2 hours without notes. He meant Zelenskys grandfather.

5) I think coup d stay in Ukraine is quite well documented and not disputed by anyone. Democratically elected government was removed by far right nationalists and pro-US government was installed. Coup d etats are not new and have been organized by the CIA all over South America in eg Operation Condor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor . Perhaps in 50 years - once the documents are declassified - we will learn what was the name of this operation.

6) What exactly do you not agree with here. I’m not sure about this reference? Eg freshwater supplies were cut off to starve Crimean people whileRussia hasn’t stopped supplying Ukraine with gas during winters even though they were conducting a military operation in Ukraine.

This post was edited by Malopox on Feb 11 2024 12:15am

That's the scary part. Just remember every Americans life is on the line when a senile old man gets woken up at 3am to launch a nuke. He's the exact person I'd want to be making that decision. When I think of my family and friends and the country I love there is no one more competent then Joe Biden. I rest easy knowing he's got our back



&&& that's only the tip of the iceberg. Can't make this shit up.

1) ussr and nazi germany invaded poland followed by a Genocide. The rest are just theories to blur the truth. It's that easy. Invading a country and mass killing/torture/rape makes you the bad guy. It doesn't matter one second whatever happened before.

2) bullshit Story. You'll find extreme right in all armies. Including russia and USA. This has nothing to do with russia killing/raping/torturing thousand of civilians. Russia Acts like the true nazis.

3) "Gentleman agreement " lol enough said

4) possible!

5) corrupt leader Was overthrown by protests. He even let snipers shoot 76 of them before leaving the country. All that followed by free elections. It was the ukrainian people who did it, their free will. Ofc superpowers will try to influence it in their favoue. Just like everywhere

6) 2014 russia invaded this areas and used all counter attacks/defending to create images for his propaganda.

This post was edited by BaHgerAUT on Feb 11 2024 03:59am

1) we are discussing Tucker Carlsons interview and your claim that Putin has stated a lie. So far you were not able to refute it.

Putin has made his position quite clear that checks out with historical documents posted by various countries and arguably is not denied by anyone. Yes it was Hitler that invaded Poland first and “started” the war which was described in Nuremberg trials. What Putin has explained are the chain of events that lead up to September 1939 invasion and how Soviets had to react as they were already engaged in a war against Axis in Khalkhin Gol(first ones of all Allies, mind you. Soviets won Khalhin Gol conflict by buying themselves time to prepare for a pending invasion from the West). Soviet invasion of Poland was supported a.o by Winston Churchill in his speech in October 1939 and generally allowed the Soviets to prepare and fortify their western border at Brest, Lwow and etc.

2) you will indeed find extreme right in all countries of the world. You will even find Neo Nazis in Russia and Europe and the United States. However these groups are usually persecuted and governments try to suppress them and they are not openly praised as national heroes. Army Generals are not posting selfies with neonazis and Nazi flags. The problem - as described - is that Nazism and glorification of Nazism became a government ideology in Ukraine. To quote one of the leaders of Azov movement and now Ukranian Army that is showing Zelensky around here:



If it quacks like a duck, floats like a duck, looks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.

3) You will be surprised by a lot of what goes in politics remains unwritten and is only found in secret government discussions which are sometimes published after half a century. This is how the world operates.

4) ok.

5) Again. Let’s set the facts straight. Yanukovich won in a narrow victory. It was his second time winning elections and he had bona fide support of more than half of the country. This is the definition of democracy.

He was overthrown by a coup lead by far right nationalists among Maidan protests. These are the facts. The rest is rhetoric as to whether there was ABSOLUTELY a need to overthrow him a not wait around to the next election cycle funding opposition through USAID/ NED to prepare for an overwhelming win in the next elections if Yanukovich was as bad as he was described.

There are assertions that based on available video and photo evidence - snipers that fired on the crowd and police forces were doing so from Maidan occupied buildings where governmental forces had no access. See eg the following article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374806748_The_snipers'_massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine

6) I think propaganda started a lot earlier. I’m not going to put words in the mouth of Putin - he has described his position quite in detail in his interview.

Several historical experts take issue with Putins revisionist narrative.

"But Sergey Radchenko, a historian at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, says the president's claim is "a complete falsehood".
"Vladimir Putin is trying to construct a narrative backwards, saying Russia as a state began its development in the 9th Century. You could equally say that Ukraine as a state began its development in the 9th Century, exactly with the same kind of evidence and documents.
"He's trying to use certain historical facts to construct a state-centred narrative that would favour Russia as opposed to any alternative agglomerations.""

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68255302

But that wasn't the point. He didn't say Ukraine belonged to Russia, more like their history is deeply interveined. Creating a nazi idiology about Ukrainians being totally different and Russian population in Ukraine being subhumans, Ukraine always belonging to the west is the bullshit he wanted to expose. Most of the confrontations Ukraine had was with Poland. Those nazi dudes they adore now were the ones commiting mass war crimes vs Poland. I'm sure as soon as Russia lets go of the western part of Ukraine, calls for reparations or return of some territory will come from Poland.
First source found in 5 seconds google search:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-asks-ukraine-confront-dark-past-despite-common-front-against-moscow-2022-07-11/
More recent:
https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/02/poland-condemns-ukraines-commemoration-of-wartime-nationalist-leader-bandera/

This post was edited by babun1024 on Feb 11 2024 05:56am

1) what prox said
2) so the only logical consequence of having a few high ranked extrememists is to kill/rape/torture a few 100k civilians and making millions flee? It will never make sense, no matter how often you repeat it. Some may carry symbols but russians act like the actual nazis here

3) idk where you are working but everyone here is urged to write down every correspondation and get Email confirmations of phone calls/Meetings. Saying the World works by unwritten law is foolish.

5) the elections were 2010 and the euromaidan began 2013 after the government failed to sign a partnership with the eu (because russia puppet Was against it). Majority of people was pro Euro though and so the protests began. Russia couldn't accept losing influence in a big neighbour state and then began their war.

The scource you are posting Katchanovski, is highly critizised for his false flag theory by other Experts. Funny enough even he stated that Extremists in the ukrainian army make up a relatively small part.

6) at some point russian propaganda told us that they are cruzifying children and soon will start to Print money showing a picture of hitler. Funny that so many people are willingly eating that narrative

This post was edited by BaHgerAUT on Feb 11 2024 06:14am

It is completely the point.

1) I’m looking forward to hear your arguments. You have stated that Putin lies when he presents his understanding of what lead up to September 1939 invasion of Poland. Could you please back this statement up with facts? So far you have presented none, while I’ve given you extended answers. Honestly interested in hearing your opinion. It’s good to get a reality check.

2) I believe this is literally what happened in Ukraine in 1940s and is happening again now. You have said that denazification narrative of Putin is a lie and I tried to explain to you with pictures, links and facts that current revisionist national idea being planted in Ukraine centers heavily on reverence of Nazi ideology that is supported by the government, unlike in other countries where Nazi ideas are usually suppressed.

3) World does work according to unwritten rules - it’s called realpolitik. Relationships between governments are akin to an anarchy as there is no effective way of enforcing agreements. The best we could come up with as humanity is UN SC which has its own set of flaws. Once again, you are kindly asked to present your vision as to why you believe Putin is lying here.

5) once again- you said that Ukraine did not have a coup d etat. How would you call a removal of a democratically elected government by force?

6) Did Putin say any of that? I believe you are invoking a red herring steering discussion somewhere else. You claimed an argument is a lie, please back it up.

This post was edited by Malopox on Feb 11 2024 08:00am

Double.

This post was edited by Malopox on Feb 11 2024 07:56am