Yes, indeed.



If you think that other world leaders dont sometimes apply pressure on allies to get results that serve their own cause, you are horribly naive. What's different here is just that Trump was super clumsy and did it so blatantly, so out in the open.

I think we had an American state that was more loyal to the American country at that time.

Ah... the "everybody does it" defense. This is something Trumpists need to believe, that all politicians are as corrupt as he is, they just never get caught. It's not true of course, and it's not even a real defense of his conduct, but if it helps you sleep at night, have at it.

This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 19 2019 01:00pm

Indications of a broken moral compass.

I am curious, do Trump supporters think this sort of leveraging of US power to pressure foreign governments into smearing political opponents should become standard practice?

If you oppose impeachment... and you still plan to vote for him... it basically follows that this shouldn't be something presidents refrain from doing.

This post was edited by IceMage on Dec 19 2019 01:03pm

All true. To me, it shouldn't be the end goal and I think there's too much celebration for something that's largely ceremonial at this point.



Yea, that scares the SHIT out of me. I just don't understand why the hill to die on is Donald Trump. It makes me think that all this strict constitutional conservatism has no home anymore and that's upsetting to me.

Americans love ceremony. we celebrate the birth of royal babies more than the damn Brits afterall.

I didnt say that all politicians are as corrupt as he is. He most definitely is pulling shit like that more often than most. My point was that pressuring allies for self-serving purposes is something that plenty of world leaders before him did as well, and that his actions on Ukraine therefore should not be considered to be a uniquely corrupt behavior. In any case, I dont think that this crime is severe enough to clear the incredibly high bar for removing a president from office. Censure would have been the appropriate response from Congress.

Judgemental, uninformed, no self awareness, will never admit fault, poor communicator, and pretty racist

I think there is a reasonable range of actions where that's appropriate though. There are things that can benefit a leader but are also in line with party goals, the goals of the nation, etc.

Trump's case is no where near that.