Quote (ThatAlex @ Jul 3 2018 09:06pm)
I acknowledge the existence of antifa. Our disagreement likely arises in the influence/proportion that antifa made up of the Charlottesville protesters.
I contend that as a whole, the people at Charlottesville who opposed the white nationalists are not morally equivalent to white nationalists.
Trump never said innocent peaceful protesters are morally equivalent to white nationalists, nor were the only people there on the other sides 'white nationalists'.
Here is what he actually said:
Quote (trump)
I'm not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I'm saying is this. You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other, and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and it was horrible. And it was a horrible thing to watch. But there is another side. There was a group on this side, you can call them the left. You've just called them the left -- that came violently attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that's the way it is.
QUESTION: ... on both sides, sir?
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides. Are…
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Well, I do think there's blame --yes, I think there's blame on both sides. You look at -- you look at both sides. I think there's blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it, and you don't have any doubt about it either.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: And -- and -- and if you reported it accurately, you would say (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: (inaudible) started this (inaudible) Charlottesville. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest…
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Excuse me, excuse me. (inaudible) themselves (inaudible) and you have some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me -- I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group thatwere there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.
later in the interview:
Quote
And you had people, and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. OK? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people, but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You've got -- you had a lot of bad -- you had a lot of bad people in the other group…
Quote
QUESTION: ... treated unfairly (inaudible) you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? (inaudible) understand what you're saying.
TRUMP: No, no. There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I'm sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know -- I don't know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit. So, I only tell you this, there are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country
Quote (TA)
This is a dishonest question. This question has a presumption built into it such that I cannot answer without appearing guilty. A complex question fallacy.
Its a completely honest question inquiring about the fundamental position that you are coming from.
As far as I can tell the answer is a combination of both.
You are playing fast and loose with what trump actually said both from an ideologically advantageous preference and a sincere ignorance of some of what was actually said, likely due to the way it was portrayed in the media and having little interest in trying to actually understand what he said and why.
You also have an SJW penchant for being quick to use 'racist and fascist' falsely, and intentionally belittling/ignoring the actions and presence of antifa to make his comments seem terrible when the truth is obscured.
As to the extent of antifa in charlottesville:
Quote (latimes)
Charlottesville Daily Progress photographer Ryan Kelly: "I hitched a ride with my editor downtown, and I started wandering the mall. There were groups on both sides scattered. There were a few small fights that broke out from time to time. People were throwing stuff at each other. A few people were beating on each other."
Hunter Wallace, a far-right blogger at Occidental Dissent: "The streets were not barricaded. Violent antifa [anti-fascists] were not penned in their own area as per our agreement with the Charlottesville Police Department, but were roaming the streets and blocking the entrance to Lee Park. They immediately launched an attack on our group with mace, pepper spray, bricks, sticks and foul liquids. The police stood idly by on the sidelines while a brawl was allowed to ensue. We had to fight our way into Lee Park and dozens of our people were injured by mace and pepper spray as we marched through the gauntlet."
"Marcus Cicero," another far-right blogger at Occidental Dissent: "Now, to begin Saturday's rally, the League of the South assembled at an area only a few blocks from Lee Park – I myself was one of the shield men. As we advanced down the street toward the park, I immediately noticed a horde of Antifa, BLM terrorists, and other assorted genetic refuse ready and willing to block the street leading up to our destination."
Washington Post reporter Joe Heim: "Counter-protesters fought back, also swinging sticks, punching and spraying chemicals. Others threw balloons filled with paint or ink at the white nationalists. Everywhere, it seemed violence was exploding. The police did not move to break up the fights."
Jordan Green in the Nation, a leftist publication: "A phalanx of black-helmeted white supremacists — members of the Traditionalist Workers Party, Identity Evropa, American Vanguard, and other hate warriors — commanded the steps at the southeast corner of the park, repelling attempted incursions by Wobblies, communists, and a multiracial cast of irregulars eager to fight back. Water bottles and other projectiles flew in both directions, while police tear-gas canisters thudded into an adjacent parking lot, oftentimes lobbed back into the park by plucky leftists."
Unicorn Riot: "Police then pushed the white supremacists out of Emancipation Park, and closed the park.... Unable to continue rallying in the park, the white supremacists took to the streets, where they were quickly followed and confronted by anti-racists. Several more extremely violent fights took place, with police looking on from their nearby substation."
University of Virginia student Isabella Ciambotti: "I was on Market Street around 11:30 a.m. when a counter-protester ripped a newspaper stand off the sidewalk and threw it at alt-right protesters. I saw another man from the white supremacist crowd being chased and beaten. People were hitting him with their signs. A much older man, also with the alt-right group, got pushed to the ground in the commotion. Someone raised a stick over his head and beat the man with it, and that's when I screamed and ran over with several other strangers to help him to his feet."
Redneck Revolt, an armed leftist group that brought rifles to Justice Park
Leftist anti-fascist organizers from Washington, D.C.: "Before the attack occurred, we chased the Nazis out of their park, removing their platform. They were on the move toward a community with many people of color. We mobilized to intercept. We were at our most powerful, all of us together chanting with enthusiastic support from the people of Charlottesville. That was the moment that we were attacked."
Recognizing and criticizing a very real group of very violent counter-protestors is not racist. Stop equating criticism of antifa with racism. Its wrong and morally objectionable.
This post was edited by cambovenzi on Jul 3 2018 07:43pm
Guests cannot view or vote in polls. Please register or login.