The direct cause-effect lens, which really is not partisan is that Hamas paragliders landed in Israel and slaughtered 1+k civilians, indiscriminately. Women, kids, elderly. The resisting occupation or ethnic cleansing, whatever, maybe an accurate lens for some people to raise a Palestinian flag and go march peacefully but to fly/share the paraglider flag is pretty explicit support for what I said in the first sentence.

Idk how they don't see this. But maybe they do and share it anyways. Didn't BLM chant "Dead Cops" not that long ago?

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Oct 16 2023 12:18pm

My experience in checking out some of the discourse happening in these kinds of leftist circles is that there's a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance, and that it is more apathy than outright support. Meaning, they experience some level of cognitive dissonance when pressed about how barbaric this attack was but they become apathetic about it in the face of the "greater suffering" that the Palestinian people face.

Sure, I imagine that there are some people actively supportive of what happened and are likely anti-Semitic rather than being anti-Zionist. Overall, my experience thus far is that they do recognize on some fundamental level the horrific nature of this attack, but that it "pales in comparison". It's like being so entrenched in their own grief, pain, and calls for justice that they cannot imagine that that is felt in any meaningful way by the Israelis too.

This post was edited by Handcuffs on Oct 16 2023 12:24pm

The only rational explanation is that droves of left wing-inclined people are being driven insane



interesting discussion

Your assessment of the sentiment is 100% correct. This is a prime example of the black-and-white Marxist worldview - there are "oppressors" and "the oppressed" which are solely determined by the relative power wielded by each party. Within the framework of this twisted worldview, "the oppressed" can do no evil, even if that is beheading babies and other unspeakable atrocities, and "oppressors" can do no good, even if that is taking every single means, at their own expense, of reducing civilian deaths or human suffering in a hot conflict.

This post was edited by El1te on Oct 16 2023 12:28pm

Good response. Think you're framing is actually very close to what is true.

What ideas do people have for achieving some semblance of peace?

I've been reading some of Hamas' charter, both from the 1980s and from the updated version from 2017. The 1980s charter called for the complete liberation of all of "historical Palestine" which would include virtually all of present-day Israel. This is untenable for a number of reasons.

The 2017 charter though signaled some openness to the utilization of the 1967 borders. It would necessarily mean the removal of the illegal Israeli settlements and return of land in order to even get back to the 1967 borders. I'm not sure what the sentiment is like in Israel. Is any return of land/removal of settlements something that the Israeli people/government would even be open to considering? For reference:

I don't know if I'd call it apathy. Its more like there are two camps- those who explicitly support killing Jews, and those who support those who explicitly support killing Jews. Its Ramaraju piggybacking atop Bheem and shooting the british jews. All that spiel about 'whatabout palestine' is just a means to the end of excusing the conduct of their political allies. Its not that they don't care about the conduct, its that they've picked a side and see it as a partisan battle to be fought, and even if they might personally have qualms about slaughtering Jews, they're ride or die at this point. Like most politics, I think it makes far more sense viewed from a lens of bitter partisanship than from a lens of 'sense'.

It's definitely not an apathy that is lethargic. It's the kind of apathy of an aggrieved party, and supporters of the aggrieved, that is the result of a tremendous amount of pain, suffering, and need for justice that has gone largely ignored by the international community and by Israel. It is very much the kind of apathy of "Yeah, this was a barbaric attack. If Israel doesn't want to be attacked like this, they should stop oppressing the Palestinians". It's the kind of apathy where you don't want to admit that there's something that "your side" needs to change because you feel the "other side" isn't going to own their own shit in a meaningful way.

I do couple's therapy as part of my job, and it is a dynamic that I've seen on full display even on the smaller, interpersonal level. Extremely tough situation to make meaningful change and progress in, but not impossible.

I guess what you posted is proportionally presenting the chances for peace and reverse-proportionally the chances for unfortunate responses with terrorism.
France officially asked to stop this SHIT at the 1967 map step.

And guess what ? The idea for Israli far right gov is now to say that all the today's green area in your last map is... Controlled by Hamas and so on, has no rights to exist.

A problem is that it kind of delves into the hypotheticals of a two state solution in a world where it could have possibly existed, when we couldn't be any further from it than we are now. Settlements were probably the smallest obstacle, even the state of Jerusalem in the long run wasn't the hangup- what needed to be solved first was Palestinian reconciliation above all and the willingness for Palestinians to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, its existence on the land it already control, and right to be secure. The camp david summits ended with Israel making a pitch for a Palestine with the full Gaza Strip and 92% of the West Bank with land swaps, accomplished by the dismantling of all but the largest settlements and only a single Jewish enclave inside Palestinian lines, but bungled the issue of the Temple Mount with some half baked idea of Palestinian custody on sovereign Israeli land for Al Aqsa and the old city. In the end, Israel made several offers to cede significant territory, dismantle settlements and grant some measure of control of holy sites, and that was rejected.

Since then Gaza was sundered and no Palestinian state could exist between the PA and Hamas/Islamic Jihad, so it was already a nonstarter. And Israel is at least partly to blame for that, since they clearly prodded the divide and sabotaged Palestinian reconciliation / election efforts for the purpose of dividing their enemies. But then again, that's a Palestinian internal problem and they can't say the Jews are keeping them apart, they could resolve their differences any time they want and they don't. And long after the two state solution was already scuttled into oblivion and its festering corpse forgotten, Trump switched the US policy to just abandoning the pretense Clinton/Bush/Obama held and throwing fully support behind Israel and no longer trying to negotiate a Palestinian state, and Biden hasn't really changed course on that, just mentioned it in a 'wouldn't it be nice if they all held hands and sang kumbayah' sort of way.

We've never been further from the two state solution than now, and if Israel had a willingness to cede territory and dismantle settlements twenty years ago, and maybe even still had a glimmer up that up to 2023, it vanished like a fart in the wind last week.