d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Official Political Picture Thread
Prev1204920502051205220535001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 53,552
Joined: Mar 6 2008
Gold: 7,908.33
Jul 5 2018 11:17am
Quote (ThatAlex @ Jul 5 2018 12:49pm)
Do you think the Obama Birther movement was a racist movement?

On fascism: I've laid out the tenets and characteristics of fascist ideology that I believe Donald Trump has represented in his public statements and political behavior in previous posts. Feel free to criticize them and discuss them.


No. Sure, Some people were racist who pushed that theory. Many just didn't like Obama and democrats, and recognized the sketchiness of the situation or were uninformed and were eager to buy into a theory that deemed him ineligible.
If being a natural born citizen is a requirement to be president, its not unreasonable or racist to ask for proof and be suspicious when that is in question.

Fascism is "a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

Fascism is not a person saying things you dont like on twitter, or the commander-in-chief caring about borders and national security.
Member
Posts: 54,124
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 5 2018 11:26am
http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=72969075&f=119&p=532953810

Quote
The tenents of fascism are certainly up for scholarly debate, but generally speaking:

Ultranationalism, emphasis on crime and punishment, obsession with national security, lack of regard for human rights, military supremacy, racial/ethnic scapegoating, disdain of an independent press, economic nationalism and protectionism, rampant cronyism and nepotism, erosion of separation of powers/authoritarianism

Trump's political behavior is consistent with the vast majority of these characteristics.


I dont see ultranationalism in Trump's words and action.



https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/01/president-donald-trumps-davos-address-in-full-8e14ebc1-79bb-4134-8203-95efca182e94/

Quote (Trump)
I believe in America. As President of the United States, I will always put America First. Just like the leaders of other countries should put their countries first.

But America First does not mean America alone.


When the United States grows, so does the world. American prosperity has created countless jobs around the globe and the drive for excellence, creativity and innovation in the United States has led to important discoveries that help people everywhere live more prosperous and healthier lives.

As the United States pursues domestic reforms to unleash jobs and growth, we are also working to reform the international trading system so that it promotes broadly-shared prosperity and rewards those who play by the rules.

We cannot have free and open trade if some countries exploit the system at the expense of others. We support free trade, but it needs to be FAIR and RECIPROCAL.

Because in the end, unfair trade undermines us all.


The United States will no longer turn a blind eye to unfair economic practices, including massive intellectual property theft, industrial subsidies, and pervasive state-led economic planning. These and other predatory behaviors are distorting global markets and harming businesses and workers—not just in the United States, but around the globe.

Just like we expect the leaders of other countries to protect their interests, as President of the United States, I will always protect the interests of our country, our companies, and our workers.

We will enforce our trade laws and restore integrity to the trading system.

Only by insisting on FAIR and RECIPROCAL trade can we create a system that works not just for the United States but for all nations
.


nationalist? definitely. but is it ultranationalist, in the sense of "to an unhealthy degree"? I dont think so. Imho, this is a healthy stance.

Quote
emphasis on crime and punishment,

every strain of political conservatism is emphasizing law and order, enforcement and accountability for crimes and misdemeanor.

Quote
obsession with national security

shared by pretty much every republican president who came before him during the last 80 or so years.

Quote
lack of regard for human rights

a simple reaction to the political left's attempts of leveraging the concept of "human rights" into a weapon that forces unlimited third world immigration and submission under the values and customs of archaic cultures onto western democracies.

Quote
military supremacy

striving for military supremacy has been the official military doctrine of the United States for at least the last 100 years, perhaps even longer.

Quote
racial/ethnic scapegoating

perhaps. but note that the contemporary left tends to label any kind of criticism of foreigner/immigrant/minority crime and underachievement as "scapegoating" in an effort to discredit this criticism irrespective of its merits.

Quote
disdain of an independent press

true, this is an aspect found in almost any fascist regime. but it's not something exlusive to fascism. and if we look at how historically hostile the press has been towards Trump from the get-go, I personally consider Trump's grudge/disdain for the mainstream press to be... if not justified, then at the very least understandable.

Quote
economic nationalism and protectionism

the pendulum is simply swinging back after decades of internationalism and globalization. trump is the agent of this trend, not its mastermind or spearhead.

Quote
rampant cronyism and nepotism

those things definitely apply to the trump administration, it's perhaps the biggest stain on his administration's record so far.
I dont know, however, whether cronyism and nepotism are really archetypical of fascist governments.

Quote
erosion of separation of powers/authoritarianism


I'll concede the authoritarianism to you, if he could, Trump would for sure govern in a very authoritarian way. I dont see a true erosion of the separation of powers, the institutional checks and balances to me seem to be still intact.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 5 2018 11:30am
Member
Posts: 12,379
Joined: Jul 14 2008
Gold: 2,620.00
Jul 5 2018 11:28am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 5 Jul 2018 12:05)
Trump's involvement in the birther movement was definitely a low point for him. It put him on the political map and appealed to reservations against Obama and his policies from (mostly) white rural voters who felt like Obama's ideas and policies were "unamerican". Some of this resentment was fueled by racism, some of it by a deep rejection of Obama's policies on a substantive level. That Trump targeted this part of the electorate might have been the result of shared racial ressentiment; or Trump simply understood that this part of the electorate would be the "power center" of the right side of the political spectrum for the years to come.

you laid out a description of Trump's presidency through a strong liberal lens and procclaimed it to be identical with the consensus definition of the characteristics of facism - but such a consensus does not exist, not even among historians and politologists. what exactly constitutes or characterizes facism is a contentious question with no definitive answer.

tbc


Discussing whether or not Trump's rhetoric and behavior is consistent with fascist ideology is more of an academic point. Of course the US government and our country is not fascist. Our democracy and democratic institutions are currently and relatively strong and protect us from any demagogue or authoritarian figures.

I concede it's an unproductive conversation because the term triggers the fuck out of people and generally leads to unsubstansive discussion.

However, upon examining some of the commonly listed criteria, characterizations, and tenets of facsim, Trump's rhetoric, public statements, and political behavior has a very high overlap with the ideology.

I also conceded that two of our former presidents, including Obama and George W. Bush, had some overlap with the ideology. However, I don't think their public statements quite meet the threshold, even if some of their policies did.

Quote (cambovenzi @ 5 Jul 2018 12:17)
No. Sure, Some people were racist who pushed that theory. Many just didn't like Obama and democrats, and recognized the sketchiness of the situation or were uninformed and were eager to buy into a theory that deemed him ineligible.
If being a natural born citizen is a requirement to be president, its not unreasonable or racist to ask for proof and be suspicious when that is in question.

Fascism is "a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

Fascism is not a person saying things you dont like on twitter, or the commander-in-chief caring about borders and national security.


Why do you think Trump pushed birtherism? Do you think any of it relates to Obama's race?
Member
Posts: 54,124
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 5 2018 11:32am
Quote (ThatAlex @ 5 Jul 2018 19:28)
Discussing whether or not Trump's rhetoric and behavior is consistent with fascist ideology is more of an academic point. Of course the US government and our country is not fascist. Our democracy and democratic institutions are currently and relatively strong and protect us from any demagogue or authoritarian figures.

I concede it's an unproductive conversation because the term triggers the fuck out of people and generally leads to unsubstansive discussion.

However, upon examining some of the commonly listed criteria, characterizations, and tenets of facsim, Trump's rhetoric, public statements, and political behavior has a very high overlap with the ideology.



I just wrote a lengthy reply to your list of fascist criteria you deem Trump guilty of. Our posts overlapped, my response is found above, posted 2 mins before yours.
Member
Posts: 33,925
Joined: Oct 9 2008
Gold: 2,528.52
Jul 5 2018 11:39am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 5 2018 01:32pm)
I just wrote a lengthy reply to your list of fascist criteria you deem Trump guilty of. Our posts overlapped, my response is found above, posted 2 mins before yours.


He's one of Thor's described disembodied head posters. He just loves to hear himself talk
Member
Posts: 66,666
Joined: May 17 2005
Gold: 17,384.69
Member
Posts: 534
Joined: Nov 15 2014
Gold: 413.69
Jul 5 2018 06:30pm
Trump will go down as the first president in forever to not start any new wars and even broker a peace with North Korea but the idiot dems will continue to call him a war monger.
Member
Posts: 53,368
Joined: Sep 2 2004
Gold: 57.00
Jul 5 2018 06:35pm
Quote (Kuggergug @ 5 Jul 2018 20:30)
Trump will go down as the first president in forever to not start any new wars and even broker a peace with North Korea but the idiot dems will continue to call him a war monger.

they (and the rinos) are just mad they cant profit off it nearly as much usual
Member
Posts: 54,124
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 5 2018 07:20pm
Quote (excellence @ 6 Jul 2018 02:35)
d2post contains blocked Quote ( by Kuggergug )Trump will go down as the first president in forever to not start any new wars and even broker a peace with North Korea but the idiot dems will continue to call him a war monger.
they (and the rinos) are just mad they cant profit off it nearly as much usual


dont sell the fur before shooting the bear. trump still has 6.5 more years ahead of him, that's plenty of time to stumble or be forced into a war.
Member
Posts: 53,368
Joined: Sep 2 2004
Gold: 57.00
Jul 5 2018 07:23pm


http://archive.is/ATDvB

another racist privileged lefty scumstain (who also works for huffpo, shocker) is confused when minorities dont act the way privileged lefty people expect them to

original tweet was deleted and followed up with this lovely one :rofl: :lol:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AuthorKimberley/status/1014902157273952256
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1204920502051205220535001Next
Closed New Topic New Poll