Did ISIS have no agency?
I care about our own. We have a limited ability to influence and control world events and we're responsible for the ramifications of our actions, even if the atrocities are not being perpetrated directly by us.

There are plenty of bad hombres who have committed numerous violent felonies who keep getting spun out of the revolving door justice system and put on the streets, the result of decades of criminal justice reforms and decriminalization by ideological activists. Now crime is soaring and the streets aren't safe. Do I blame Xavion Tyrece Bell, 21, of St. Paul for shooting Dion Lamarr Ford Jr., 21, during a robbery attempt? Sure. But I also blame the system that set him free despite his prior convictions on three counts of 1st degree aggravated robbery and three counts of kidnapping and of being a felon in possession of a firearm, enough that anyone should be put in prison for life. It was the result of intentional policy set by bureaucrats, politicians, judges and activists. They put the gun in his hand, he pulled the trigger.

We provoked Russia. We knew they would react, we were the instigating party that disrupted the status quo by supporting a coup d'etat. After decades of Madeleine Albright's NATO encroachment, we drove the western sphere of influence right up to their doorstep. We set in motion the Ukrainian war, profiteered off the conflict, flooded the country with weapons to ensure it would become a bloodbath, and would not stake out the hard military line necessary to protect it from Russian invasion. Moral judgment over the Russians or Ukrainians or Americans won't change anything, God is not on our side, we're not blessed by the Virgin Mary with divine providence, Allah does not will it, Vishnu's avatar won't fire his Shiv Dhanush to wipe out Moscow. There is just a series of consequential events, with foreseeable outcomes.

Yea, the country with nuclear weapons is "menaced" by one of the poorest countries in Europe. Do you punch children in the face whenever they call you names?

Russia's security was never in jeopardy and it's pretty clear that they just want a puppet state so they can own the natural resources in the Black Sea/Eastern Ukraine. Plan A obviously failed (hostile takeover of the capital) and so now they are on Plan B.

I never said whether Russia is justified in feeling threatened. I am just pointing out that you can't say this war is solely Russia's fault. It's not. Your country played a part.

So we'll agree its 98% Russia, 1% USA and 1% EU?

I don't think it's possible to put exact numbers on it.

You can 100% blame it on Russia lol. No one forced them to invade. No one forced them to place troops near the border a year ago.

Is the invasion also China's fault because they give Russia financial comfort? Is the invasion also Germany's fault for being dependent on Russian resources?

Oh sure, let's blame the system. Let's blame the NRA too while we're at it! And the 2nd amendment! And slavery too! Nope, Tyrone got the gun himself and shot Jamal of his own volition. We can talk about secondary and tertiary factors in that correlations exist but discussing the butterfly effect is nonsensical.

As for "provoking" Russia, I know you're not that gullible. You and I both know the real reason they invaded: they want a puppet state and the natural resources. But darn, I guess those pesky prospectors are to blame for all this!

I realize that Russia is primarily responsible for the attack, however you have to look at all the factors that ultimately caused them to "snap", as it were. Believe me, nobody sane is going to get into a war lightly, and certainly not the kind Russian currently finds herself in.

When a battered and abused wife finally kills her husband, are you going to be so heartless as to say to her, "well, no one forced you to kill your husband"?



I think goomshill's point is that assigning blame is much more nuanced than simply saying, "who pulled the trigger?"



You can read people's minds?

Absolutely. Women are put in prison for the rest of their life when that happens. Do you not do that in Canada?

I can't read minds, but anyone who is paying attention knows that that's the reason.

The point isn't whether women get put into prison. The point is that you need to look at all the factors that contributed to this war. Simply crying that Russia is the aggressor, which technically is true, does not do much to help the situation. You need to realize that your country is partially at fault, too.



And I can say that the reason you are posting here is because you have no life. Hey, I am paying attention, so I must be right, right?

Yes and yes.



A sequence of reasonably predictable events of immediate proximate causation aren't the butterfly effect. We stirred a pot and unleashed chaos. Its a repeated theme in the past few decades of US foreign policy, mercifully save the Trump years. Our chickens coming home to roost. But not a moral indictment of US policy by bleeding hearts, not god's punishment for being too nice to homos. Just how the world works, a system of actors with their own motives and capabilities. You make a power vacuum in the mideast, regressive sunni populist militias fill it. You poke Russia, Russia pokes back.

This post was edited by Goomshill on Apr 7 2022 06:01pm