People who say western European countries would rise up and fight nuclear power when not directly attacked just don't grasp all the factors in play
Western EU society is very anti-war, pacifist, modernist people living in information age where everything is made for comfort, Germans for obvious reasons avoid any sort of military engagement like hellfire, French after Algeria and other colonies campaigns too rarely if ever covers anything about war and prefers sending foreign legion to do its dirty work and society there is as pacifist as it was during world war 2, Italy is in the middle of those 2.

Ukraine on other hand with its Soviet past, military service was pretty routine and older men all have had some sort of military experience, even more so since 2014, Ukraine had 8 years to transform and prepare and it did, despite corruption, thefts, collusion, under the table dealings and all other shit, younger generation has been trained society has hardened up, even if Europeans actually engaged and not have to deal with corruption near that on Ukrainian scale, their soldiers have 0 relevant experience and its not something easily obtained, again keeping in mind the general mentality of people in those countries I dare say they will find it much harder at first surviving and gaining that experience from the meat grinder as they would be thrown into it straight away without continuous warm up/cooldown grace periods Ukraine had since 2014 to build up units with experience that know how to conduct 21st century trench warfare. First stages would be extremely hard for Europeans.

So realistically Europeans would definitely be better equipped, be more efficient in gaining theoretical/technological experience yet be hampered by their mentality not really fit for conventional warfare and chaos/brutality such a war would bring, but most importantly would not have the time necessary to create enough battle hardened forces to be able to stop Russia and its allies by then (Belarus, Occupied Ukraine, etc) and find themselves overwhelmed rather quickly. And we know what happens when Western Europeans get overwhelmed they capitulate, no Stalingrad like "drown the invader in our corpses" mentality there. Rather make a deal and save millions of lives/resources/economies knowing full well Russia is not really interested in "controlling" Western Europe as they are in gaining back the control/hold over the USSR satellite states.

But thats all hypothetical scenarios anyway, Germans/French and idk why they are even here Italians will never engage Russia over Baltics/eastern parts of Poland, if someone does it will be UK/US and that will mean we all will die, or sit in bunkers most of our lives.

This post was edited by Lvivz on Aug 19 2022 02:52pm

I agree with your post.
I have a cousin, that worked for NATO for 2 years in western Europe. During this 2 years he earned enough to buy himself a house, and he can basically retire now. He said to me that NATO spends huge amount of cash and while not corrupted, does it unnecessary. People drive luxury cars, live luxury life in huge houses. Its more of a golden circle of millionaires there, than an army.

This post was edited by Ironfister on Aug 19 2022 03:19pm

Anyone wants to go dig a trench in dry rock-like ground in the summer, then chill in it with lices, rats, disease, rain/snow pouring in during Autumn/Winter as your positions are being hit by artillery from all sides? We are in 21st century, 85%+ of western Europeans only held a gun in Call of Duty on their monitors, and thats how it should be.

Lots of people on the internet think it would be natural to get up "go to war" (as long as it aint them going) where they would be playing games on their laptops in the trench bunker, taking a 3 minute break pressing few buttons killing 1000 hostiles and going back to playing video games with hot chicks from the press taking their pictures, and in 2-3 days maybe a week they will be back home like nothing happened rich/famous/accomplished with everyone hailing them for their great sacrifice and heroism. Reality creeps in fast and hits hard, 8 out of 10 guys are not actually fighting Rambo style like they thought they would be, instead breaking their backs digging tank/artillery caterpillars out of mud with huge rusty crowbars 12 hours a day and 5 hours a night unable to feel their legs due to cold and constant cold flues/fevers, putting out fires, sewing their friends back together because your medic was killed days ago be they Americans/russians/Ukrainians/Germans/French or Zimbabweans in a conventional war like this.

If you look at Job markets in western europe, hard labor intensive jobs are the ones where there are biggest shortages of semi-skilled trade-oriented semi-educated laborers with ability to take initiative on their own, as well as truck drivers(logistics) if you exclude IT industry. So if during peace time very few want those jobs there, Europe has to constantly rely on immigration to meet their needs in these fields, what makes anyone reasonable believe that suddenly 100,000s of Germans/French/Italians will get up in arms, train and do similar but far more dangerous jobs on the front lines with far greater risks with less pay, singing "Kumbaya we are warriors of light and justice" in the rain/snow as they are marching to protect Baltics (which 40% of them can't even identify on the map correctly).

This post was edited by Lvivz on Aug 19 2022 04:28pm

Eh .. i think you're selling NATO countries short.. there is a difference between war and work when it comes to psychology and effort, and most people know that.

I think that the difference in technique and experience while being somewhat relevant, will be quickly caught up if it came to war. I really don't think any European country military is deluded when it comes to what war involves.. and when people enlist, they know what to expect and will be trained accordingly.

War is really not about who can dig trenches fastest. It's about intelligent leadership, that's the most important thing. Making the right decisions. But of course, everything is important...

While i did write that there is a difference between work and war, war is really just a lot of work. But the costs are so much higher.

Well we can twist and turn the truth any way we want but in the end NATO as an alliance is 70% just USA, and probably 85%+ by actually battle ready forces that can be deployed right away if anything happens.




In conventional war scenario by the time enough enlist, russians will be marching through their capital.

War is 80% ability to endure and survive while maintaining heavy weaponry operational and firing , be it digging trenches, putting out fires, fixing stuff up, cooking, transporting or operating stuff.
Soldiers are the main resource, and in conventional hypothetical scenario discussed here Europe is not arming up sufficiently or fast enough nor training enough soldiers to be ready to withhold russia should it suddenly decide to blitzkrieg though in an event Ukraine falls and puppet govt is installed there, it definitely won't be France/Germany/Italy being the big 3 to oppose Russia in such a scenario around the Baltics/Eastern Poland, but US/UK/Poland trident.

You can't start mobilizing people and having them enlist only as russians are full on rushing towards your capital, like I said Ukraine had 8 year "grace" period to militarize itself, revamp its army, get experience, enlist and organize/train its forces even so not being able to withstand full russian charge and for the thorns to finally kick in when "quick blitzkrieg" and "Kiev in 3 days" tactic failed miserably and Ukraine didn't capitulate as moscow wanted it to, neither France/Germany/Italy has at its current state army capable of prolonged conventional engagement against russia.


Nor does this hypothetical russian invasion would ever threaten the very existance of Germany/France/Italy as nations as they are the end-product customers filling moscows regimes coffers with euros every month, funds putin can't survive without, Ukraine on other hand is completely different story according to putin "same people, reuniting russian lands same way as Peter 1 did, etc".

Single guided missile costs 165 thousand dollars.
This is insane costs.
Russia costs are much lower on everything than NATO costs

Yes but they also like to smoke near their missiles so lots go up in the air

zero fucks given about which warmonger will win the next proxy war

only one thing is for sure, the average joe is not winning

Wake up people.