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May 5 2020 02:33pm
Quote (Kayeto @ May 5 2020 03:14pm)
I see them as being distinct from one another.

If the FF had been like "we want a representative voting process and oh btw we are also giving rights to blacks and women" then the revolution would have never happened.

Progress is incremental. The incremental progress that was made stands on its own as an achievement, untarnished by the lack of progress made in other areas during that event.


I mean, who gets to be a citizen pretty heavily influences the way a government treats its citizens and how they interact with the government. The fact that so many people literally fought a war against including a certain group of people as citizens is proof enough of that. Similarly, who gets a say, if it's white landowners versus all citizens, also plays a huge role in how people see their government. If the government isn't representing half the citizens and doesn't allow another half of the people to even be considered for citizens influences A LOT about how the government is set up.

It's needlessly limiting to not acknowledge this.
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May 5 2020 03:34pm
Quote (IceMage @ May 5 2020 01:37pm)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/black-history-american-democracy.html

She just won a Pulitzer for this work and the rest of the project.

I've not read most of the 1619 material but the article above is beautiful. I think it's a problem when critics focus solely on perhaps a couple historical inaccuracies, and don't acknowledge the legitimate stories and larger narratives in a project like this.


Narratives are built on a bedrock of facts. It's obviously concerning when an ideological project gets basic facts wrong in an attempt to support an underlying narrative.
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May 5 2020 04:22pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 5 May 2020 17:34)
Narratives are built on a bedrock of facts. It's obviously concerning when an ideological project gets basic facts wrong in an attempt to support an underlying narrative.

feels matter more than fachts
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May 5 2020 04:30pm
Quote (bogie160 @ May 5 2020 04:34pm)
Narratives are built on a bedrock of facts. It's obviously concerning when an ideological project gets basic facts wrong in an attempt to support an underlying narrative.


If people want to really blow up one figure here or one word there, I would argue that they're missing the forest for the trees. I think that there's a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.
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May 5 2020 06:34pm
what's the article about? it's behind a paywall
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May 5 2020 06:50pm
Quote (duffman316 @ May 5 2020 05:34pm)
what's the article about? it's behind a paywall


The 1619 project outlines how America was built on the backs of slaves.
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May 5 2020 07:02pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 5 2020 04:06pm)
I'm more inclined to judge the people doing the judging, wondering what is wrong with a modern society that looks at older societies and passes moral judgment on them as if we aren't just as culpable by future moral standards.
Moral relativism doesn't need to completely lack a baseline footing and excuse any conduct, but its a farce to disdain anything less than the most vehement radicals. Its the kind of people who would glorify John Brown and call W.E.B. Du Bois an uncle tom. Although Marcus Garvey went a step further didn't he


Agree with this.

Kind of strange how we started to apply current standards to historical realities to essentially destroy the symbols that brought incremental change.

It would be weird to read front page stories about how the Mayans use to engage in human sacrifice or how some native american tribes scalped as a form of trophy in some vain attempt to change how today's society should view those groups.

It's part of history, look at it objectively and understand historical context.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on May 5 2020 07:06pm
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May 5 2020 07:18pm
Quote (thundercock @ May 5 2020 08:50pm)
The 1619 project outlines how America was built on the backs of slaves.



Yes, that's what the article is about.

I wonder though, what would the US be like today if the whites had just dumped a bunch of blacks in the US, then left.
I mean America was built on the backs of a LOT of people of a LOT of races.
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May 5 2020 07:19pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 5 2020 06:30pm)
If people want to really blow up one figure here or one word there, I would argue that they're missing the forest for the trees. I think that there's a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.


What does it mean to be morally right?
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May 5 2020 07:22pm
Quote (bogie160 @ May 5 2020 08:19pm)
What does it mean to be morally right?


Morally right, like ensuring that everyone who doesn't want to work has guaranteed economic security.
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