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Jan 29 2020 09:51am
Quote (NatureNames @ Jan 28 2020 04:05pm)
Can't see why the Palestinians would ever go for this. They want independent sovereignty on their own terms. Israel and the US don't have the authority to grant anybody statehood. Can you imagine Palestinians proposing a plan based on their own agenda? Israel would laugh at them. This plan was dead before it started. Muslims will never accept this, EVER. All this is doing is throwing grease on the fire by insulting Palestine. Any meaningful negotiations need to have all parties at the table.


in what sense? Israel is able to cede it's own lands and give over governance of those lands to anyone.

this doesnt guarantee the statehood will be accepted by world organizations such as the UN, but the UN hasn't been cool with Israel creeping outside their borders via settlements and wars for decades. i dont see why they'd refuse to accept a state that is made up of lands the UN didnt want taken from the people its being given to.
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Jan 29 2020 10:36am
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 29 2020 07:51am)
in what sense? Israel is able to cede it's own lands and give over governance of those lands to anyone.

this doesnt guarantee the statehood will be accepted by world organizations such as the UN, but the UN hasn't been cool with Israel creeping outside their borders via settlements and wars for decades. i dont see why they'd refuse to accept a state that is made up of lands the UN didnt want taken from the people its being given to.


I think as far as the Palestinians are concerned they are already a independent state, albeit oppressed. The notion that two rich nations have the authority to declare and shape a state or new nation is arrogant. USA didn't need permission when they absolved themselves from the British Crown and declared themselves independent states. The State of Palestine almost made their way into the UN but got big-dick vetoed by the US.
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Jan 29 2020 10:59am
Quote (NatureNames @ Jan 29 2020 10:36am)
I think as far as the Palestinians are concerned they are already a independent state, albeit oppressed. The notion that two rich nations have the authority to declare and shape a state or new nation is arrogant. USA didn't need permission when they absolved themselves from the British Crown and declared themselves independent states. The State of Palestine almost made their way into the UN but got big-dick vetoed by the US.


ending a war and giving people land from your own lands is arrogant?

i fail to see who would not recognize a Palestinian state if the US-Israel gave them lands.

so just exactly in what context, with regards to Israel-Palestine, are the US and Israel not able to make a Palestinian state from Israeli lands?

is it just the context of people who dont like the US and think they shouldn't have "more power", which in this case amounts to the "power" to give up land.

im just a bit confused as to who wouldnt recognize a Palestinian state? Iran? Zimbabwe? North Korea? who?
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Jan 29 2020 11:24am
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 29 2020 08:59am)
ending a war and giving people land from your own lands is arrogant?

i fail to see who would not recognize a Palestinian state if the US-Israel gave them lands.

so just exactly in what context, with regards to Israel-Palestine, are the US and Israel not able to make a Palestinian state from Israeli lands?

is it just the context of people who dont like the US and think they shouldn't have "more power", which in this case amounts to the "power" to give up land.

im just a bit confused as to who wouldnt recognize a Palestinian state? Iran? Zimbabwe? North Korea? who?


I'm not interested in entertaining your "arguments" and I don't want to spend time on your new questions. But this link might provide some insight to one question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

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Jan 29 2020 11:28am
Quote (NatureNames @ Jan 29 2020 11:24am)
I'm not interested in entertaining your "arguments" and I don't want to spend time on your new questions. But this link might provide some insight to one question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine


so the tl;dr is that palestine hasn't been accepted as a state due to pressure from the USA and Israel.

and you're saying that if the US and Israel make them a state that it wont be recognized, even tho the only reason it hasnt been recognized is the US and Israel.

im even more confused.
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Jan 29 2020 11:34am
Quote (thesnipa @ 29 Jan 2020 17:59)
ending a war and giving people land from your own lands is arrogant?


No. But it's really bold to first erect settlements on the other party's fertile land (in the Jordan river valley) and then suggest to compensate them by giving them desolate land in the middle of the desert under the vague promise of turning this no-man's-land into a "high tech manufacturing industrial zone" and a "residential and agricultural zone"...
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Jan 29 2020 11:40am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 29 2020 11:34am)
No. But it's really bold to first erect settlements on the other party's fertile land (in the Jordan river valley) and then suggest to compensate them by giving them desolate land in the middle of the desert under the vague promise of turning this no-man's-land into a "high tech manufacturing industrial zone" and a "residential and agricultural zone"...


im not saying it's fair, or even that the specifics aren't arrogant. im just questioning whether a country has the right to cede it's own land and allow a new state to be born. the political process for secession in the US is a tall order, requires ratification by the states, etc. im not sure what the legal process is in Israel, but regardless i dont see why Palestine wouldnt be allowed to exist with the blessing of Israel and the gift of lands with which to make the state out of.

i think that user's original statement should read more like "The US and Israel shouldn't be allowed to deny and create states when it's advantageous to them", rather than focusing on whether they do or dont have the power to do so.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Jan 29 2020 11:40am
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Jan 29 2020 07:09pm
Whole middle east should just be leveled. Religious fucks been fighting for too long
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Jan 29 2020 08:04pm
Quote (fender @ Jan 28 2020 09:55pm)
there is no hypocrisy, you're just making a moronic and incredibly flawed analogy, that's all.

the brits are in a weak position because they CHOSE to leave the EU (btw, i've not been cheering for 'punishing terms', i have explained why it's INEVITABLE the EU don't make the deal too sweet for the UK, because they have to deter other countries from leaving and trying to cherry pick their benefits without the commitments and contributions). furthermore, the brits are negotiating on their own behalf - they are a sovereign country and meet the EU negotiators on equal terms. the palestinians, on the other hand, have been illegally occupied for decades, had absolutely NO say in this ridiculous PR stunt, and the way this administration has treated them, clearly illustrates their bad intentions towards palestine - just in case you were too lazy to read and critically think about this 'peace plan'.

you know why the palestinians "aren't in a position to dictate anything"? because they have been kept in an open air prison, murdered, starved, expropriated, tortured, and violated for decades - against international law, and by a military generously funded with billions of US taxpayer dollars (but also other countries, including germany) - while they don't have sufficient access to basic medical supplies, drinking water, and resources necessary to build a nation. how does that compare to the UK's CHOICE to leave the EU because they wanted to get rid of some hard working polish people have 'control over their own borders and laws' (which both they largely had btw)...


The EU can't offer good terms because they need to deter other countries from leaving. Is this Britain's fault?

Israel is in a dominant position, the Palestinians have lost several wars and are in a poor position. They need to negotiate fairly with respect to their relative strengths and come to an agreement.

It's irrelevant as to why the Palestinians can't dictate their future. If they continue to force their people to wage war against Israel, they will suffer. It's a matter of life and death. You can appease whatever twisted sense of morality you want, their people suffer the longer this conflict goes on.

The British have chosen self determination over the rule of a German dominated EU. I would encourage you to respect that and remain consistent with your ideology. I respect the EU's response, but that's consistent with how I view international affairs.
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Jan 29 2020 08:13pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 30 Jan 2020 03:04)
The EU can't offer good terms because they need to deter other countries from leaving. Is this Britain's fault?

Israel is in a dominant position, the Palestinians have lost several wars and are in a poor position. They need to negotiate fairly with respect to their relative strengths and come to an agreement.

It's irrelevant as to why the Palestinians can't dictate their future. If they continue to force their people to wage war against Israel, they will suffer. It's a matter of life and death. You can appease whatever twisted sense of morality you want, their people suffer the longer this conflict goes on.

The British have chosen self determination over the rule of a German dominated EU. I would encourage you to respect that and remain consistent with your ideology. I respect the EU's response, but that's consistent with how I view international affairs.


Brexit was provoked by horrible populists who lied to their people.
The peace plan is a scam, annexion, war plan.
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