fair enough, can happen.
the thing is, the iranian government is undeniably a shitty, authoritarian theocracy that brutally oppresses any political opposition, and i have absolutely no sympathy for them. that does, however, not mean that we (as in 'the west') have a right to interfere in their internal affairs. particularly when you keep in mind under which circumstances they became an "islamic republic" in the first place.

let's get back to topic though. trump trying to downplay putin's murdering of journalists isn't even the main issue, by his standards that's a relatively small fuckup (such are the times we live in) - but outright defying congress for months in order to spare russia of well deserved, and overwhelmingly supported additional sanctions, should give even people who generally support him pause, and illustrate how the 'he's tough on russia' narrative is really a big fat lie...

is there a level of oppression or genicide where the world is free to flout international law, waltz into your country, and fuck you into the ground?

and where on a scale of 1 to 1938 is Iran?

that is not at all required to achieve your goal, therefore i reject your framing of the issue.
intervention can happen in accordance with international law. genocide prevention, humanitarian intervention sanctioned by the UN is a thing, you know?

legally and practically those are of course incredibly complex and delicate issues, but as a general rule of thumb i support it - if the evidence is good.

i don't think we have the information to know where exactly iran is right now, but it's undeniably bad. from what i gather, there was genuine optimism and relief in the country after the iran deal was made, but the harsh sanctions this administration imposed, severely hurt the population. they severely limit their access to life-saving medicine, and generally lead to the most severe suffering amongst the poorest and weakest members of iran's society (so much for trump's 'i love the iranian people' narrative).
obviously that lead to new protests against both their regime, and america - and the former were cracked down on by the government.

again, this is partly speculation, but from my perspective it doesn't look like there is overwhelming organised opposition, and an escalation with external threats seems way more likely than any reforms that would convince american warmongers to alleviate some pressure.

this is a russia topic though, so maybe let's get back to that?

i think the russian aspect of this thread is dead, tbh. it was an announcement, not much can be even argued. everyone dislikes Putin except ofthevoid.

but just as a thought experiment, lets say Hitler never invades Denmark and commences the Holocaust only within Germany. in that scenario do you support WW2 or sanctions? thats what i meant by the "scale of 1 to 1938"

one does not have to like putin in order to have a discussion about this or at least somewhat related topics, like our governments' relations with russia and putin for example. it might well be dead, but we don't have to stifle discussions by just declaring it that...



why denmark? do you mean just give him czechoslovakia, austria, and poland, call all of that 'germany', and start your 'thought experiment' in the spring of 1940?
regardless, what a ridiculous question really, and another ridiculous framing (a worldwide war would hardly be necessary if an alliance of nations agrees to stop a genocide from happening within one single country without any allies that pursue common war goals)...

of course that would have to happen, but how is that relevant in this context? as bad as iran's government unquestionably is, they are not currently committing a genocide.
if you want to talk genocide, there are a couple happening as we speak: in china, myanmar, and yemen (with american support), and it looks like india is eager to join that list. the perpetrators of those definitely need to be sanctioned - at the very least...

This post was edited by fender on Jan 16 2020 01:55pm

tbh i had a brain fart and mistook the invasion of poland for denmark. aka the start of hitler's invasions of other countries, and what i meant by it was what should the world have done if Hitler was just an authoritarian genocidal democratically appointed leader, rather than having designs on ruling the world.

i agree Iran isnt there, genocide, but would ask the same question of China, India, etc. at what point does just genocide necessitate a regime toppling invasion by people. at this rate, with their much higher population, china could eclipse hitler with ease in body counts.

oh ok, i almost suspected the poor poles to get abandoned by their 'allies' once again, not even in thought experiments they are valued enough to justify interference...



well, as i mentioned before, those are highly complex and delicate issues, but leaving the practical, political, legal, and real world considerations out, from an idealistic and moral perspective, those regimes are certainly 'deserving' of international intervention.

that is, of course, in the cases of china and india purely academic, given they are nuclear powers with massive populations, but from a humanitarian standpoint our inaction is simply not justifiable - not that we haven't grown accustomed to a certain degree of helplessness against blatant injustices through the decades of israel's illegal occupation of palestine (which, just to inb4 that, might not meet the criteria for genocide, but still is a massive humanitarian tragedy).

i mean, you won't get me to name a number, like killing one million is free (or make it a percentage of your population, so we can look away from china and india for a bit longer?), but when we're entering this territory: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml , the rest of the world should definitely take a closer look and do something.

we used to make jokes about Poles cavalry charging german tanks, then my friends polish grandma tearfully told us it actually happened. we just thought it was another "dumb pollock" joke.



nukes really are a mother fucker. the Kims should have been in unmarked graves 30 years ago, they're the worst of them all. i agree with everything in this post.

i was gonna pm you, but i feel i should keep this public.

i truly feel bad about that accusation. for the passed few days i've had despised you in a serious way because i thought that was you that made the comment.
i know i've apologized, but i really just want you to know i feel pretty terrible about this one.

China/India/Russia/NK show us that Authoritarian regimes acquiring nukes is just something we can't allow again. That's the actual red line with Iran imo. I would not be against a war if they were close to nukes.