I think there are a lot of dichotomies that have dictated human thought and have been created by the dualistic way we think about the universe probably stemming from the dualistic nature of how we think about ourselves. I don't completely believe these dichotomies to be true outside of them being a function of self-understanding projected to the rest of the universe.

We can trace binary back to a starting point (two) and then trace the genealogy of those back to other foundational ideas that descend further, and if you go back far enough, on or off didn't exist before human consciousness....there was just matter in various compositions and forms, non of it was on, or off.

You're quite right about mathematical tautologies, but if look at computational formalism, i.e. mathematical stuff that actually does something, it actually does perfectly describe the universe which is every interesting. The universe does appear to follow strict computationalism.

This post was edited by Voyaging on Aug 27 2016 07:54am

I think our rationality conforms to the universe. I think that living things are also fundamentally different to nonliving things and am a vitalist as opposed to a reductionist. Emergent properties to exist. It isn't a thing though like Descartes thought and what is "discredited".

This post was edited by Skinned on Aug 27 2016 08:01am

Really? What could be different about living things?

Well they're alive and they can eventually produce consciousness, which is amazing an output that affects its own input by way of experience.

I believe in free will, but its not unconditional. Agency has degrees.

This post was edited by Skinned on Aug 27 2016 08:05am

So you think AI cannot be conscious in principle? Why not?

I'm not making any judgements about AI or other advanced technologies. I think if machines meet the criteria of being alive then they should be respected as such. I hope people wouldn't build suffer-bots but suffering is an emergent property as well so an advanced machine it would have to be.

It would be like creating clones, or hybrid cyborgs. I see science going the way of creating slaves artifically to circumvent pesky human rights concerns. I think racism and sexism is going to be very tame compared to what is to come in terms of discrimination based on generic differentials that will development between social classes as genetic manipulation increasingly becomes available to the children of the wealthy and their children literally become a higher race (until homogeneous genes cause incredible defects in a few generations of grandchildren due to everybody wanting the same thing and having an artifical inbreeding crisis until a few kinks are worked out). ((Alex Jones time)).

But things are non-deterministic at a quautum level right and our maths brakes down, its like newton was right until we realized you needed relativity also, then it still doesn't account for certain orbits apparently


Maths is fundamental though, like every proton is identical and you can count more than two of them right, and the matter your talking about has properties far more complex than binary, hm i guess it was pretty homogeneous to start with though, anything who says they understand the big bang properly is a terrible liar


You talk like this is a bad thing, I can't wait until we're all ai with a single consciousness lol (god)
Sure it might be bumpy along the way but change often is
If genetherapy/brain manimulation/cpu interface comes first I can see problems but there's too many sci-fi books I've read that are going to change my opinion if I think too much about it lol

This post was edited by dakariii on Aug 27 2016 08:23am

Damn. Looks like a good djent riff you have there m8.

If you think artificial machines can be alive then I'm curious how you define "life"?

I am a panpsychist, but agree that only complex systems of a certain kind can be conscious in a unitary, meaningful sense.

Suffer bots are among my greatest fears. Luckily I predict we're thousands of years away from conscious AI, unluckily I think once we figure out quantum computing I think it won't be a long way off and there's no telling what hellish life a sadist or apathetic would create. My hope is we all come to agreement on morality as a species before we ever have these technological powers.

I think there are enough strong ethical philosophers in the transhumanist and technology fields that we will grant beings that seem to be able to suffer the same compassion as humans. Although on the other hand, look what we do to nonhuman animals.

My hope is that genetic technologies will rapidly decrease in price and be available for virtually everyone, or even given as a human right. Ideally imo, "natural" conception without any genetic selection or editing will be outlawed as cruel. On that subject, with AI being most likely a long way away, I think developing CRISPR or similar genetic technologies and possibly also legalizing and doing research on designer babies globally, imo these will be the most important technologies ever invented and should be our absolute top priority, so we can reduce suffering, be vastly more intelligent, eradicate genetic diseases, and live overwhelmingly more fulfilling lives.