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May 3 2010 12:13am
Quote (bogie160 @ May 2 2010 10:08pm)
Hahahaha too bad we won.


I wouldn't call that a victory
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May 3 2010 12:46am
Quote (bogie160 @ May 2 2010 10:51pm)
Nations survive and thrive on common culture and identity. America protects itself from decay by promoting a cult-like support for the Constitution. This is not bad, on the contrary it is quite good, it allows our nation to protect the very rights it was founded on.

Immigration is both the bane and the life of this system. It allows the influx of new blood necessary to prevent decline, but it does not force that new blood to have the same respect for culture that native citizens have propagandized into them. Here enters the need for restriction on immigration, tests on knowledge of American history, civics, etc.

I want a compromise, there isn't any need for either racism or self-hatred, let in immigrants regardless of race or ethnicity, but only take those with an actual interest in assimilating to American culture.



I agree with that , except those who cant spell English right , unless they work in areas that doesnt involve speechs
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May 3 2010 12:47am
Quote (Haitham @ May 2 2010 11:02pm)
http://www.mygenealogist.com/Sitting_Bull.jpg

Native American frowns upon your shenanigans.


:love: these guys
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May 3 2010 12:50am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ May 2 2010 11:02pm)
Assimilation is the single biggest factor in the greatness of America .

If any person or group of people wishes to maintain their old culture they should stay in their old country .


bullseye , thats exactly what it should be , but many ignorant dont get it , u can't force ur culture outside your country its like giving selling UK-like cars in the US .
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May 3 2010 09:36am
Quote (bogie160 @ 3 May 2010 04:51)
...
I want a compromise, there isn't any need for either racism or self-hatred, let in immigrants regardless of race or ethnicity, but only take those with an actual interest in assimilating to American culture.


another famous oxymoron
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May 3 2010 09:45am
Quote (brmv @ May 3 2010 09:36am)
another famous oxymoron


That must be why people all over the world eat hamburgers, drink Coke, listen to rock and roll music, watch American movies, etc...
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May 3 2010 11:08am
Quote (bogie160 @ May 3 2010 05:55am)
Tric - You are wrong. Very few nations become strong because of social freedom, I'd challenge you to find relevant historical examples that outweigh the dozens I can think up; and economic strength would be a better word than economic freedom, it is the strength to marshal resources which counts, not something so abstract as freedom.

We have a national identity, and yes, it has and does survive on the death of others. That national identity (your respect for rights, for example) is essential for our survival. The notion that our nation is "strong" because of our freedoms is just as essential. We need them to survive.

I think governments exist as a means to benefit and protect society, the consent of the people can only be withdrawn through blood.


There is no need to dominate the world for resources if our economy can be competitive enough to bid for them on a free market. Resources being diverted away from our own country is not a bad thing if those resources are being used optimally to provide goods and services more efficiently. Trying to prop up economic strength through imperialism is hardly a plan for long term success, as we can see our own country buckling under the cost of the American empire and the debt we have accumulated to hide our inability to be competitive on a global market. It's really to no ones benefit to run a country this way, and it is not sustainable in the long run. Considering terrorism and global resentment, in fifty years we won't be the economic powerhouse. If anything, other countries will do everything they can to hinder America on the world scene so we can never rise to power again, much like what we do to Russia. Just like every other empire, we will fail and be worse off for it. Instead of using resources to destroy wealth, we can be building it up to everyone's gain. Legitimate economic prosperity and wealth will be found in economic freedom, not through fascistic policies seeking temporary economic strength. Free economies will attract all the resources they need without the need for an empire.

Who has to die so we can have a "national identity"? That's not an identity I or most people I know cares to be a part of.

I'm not sure why you keep saying our national identity is essential for our "survival". If our identity can be as subtle as people's respect for each others rights then I hardly see a point in making a fuss over it. It seems like a moot point. But correct me if I am wrong, you feel that there is an optimal identity that should be imposed on people because you think you can manage to socially engineer civilization in an optimal way. You want to fight the drug war because recreational drug use does not fit in with your idea of a homogeneous population. ( despite evidence to the contrary )

To wrap this up, I don't see any validity at all in what you have to say. I don't think American imperialism to secure resources will do the country any good in the long run. And I absolutely don't see a point in fostering a national identity. Those kinds of things need to come about from the bottom up. National identities need to be spontaneous and legitimate. We don't need to propagandize our children/population into accepting a pre determined set of values. We have tried that, and we waste billions on the drug war, and have pimps roaming the streets and the highest prison rate on earth.
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May 3 2010 11:16am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ May 3 2010 12:02am)
Assimilation is the single biggest factor in the greatness of America .

If any person or group of people wishes to maintain their old culture they should stay in their old country .


What does it mean to be an "american"?
I guarantee you, the definition has changed a lot in the 233 years the US has been around.

Each new group of immigrants has faced the same crap central americans are now facing. It is the same exact argument, whether it is the Chinese, the Irish, the Germans, the Italians,or w/e.. "they are taking our jobs" "they are the cause for crime" "they are bringing their heretic ideas with them" "they are causing the decline of America"
With time each group has slowly assimilated, while at the same time blending part of its culture into the existing "american" culture, and becoming part of the 'we hate immigrants' club.

And that's the greatness of America; this big blending pot of cultures, and different ideas and ways of doing things, which has allowed us to become a center of innovation.
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May 3 2010 12:12pm
American culture > gypsy culture
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May 3 2010 02:41pm
Quote (tric-isHUGE @ May 3 2010 05:08pm)
There is no need to dominate the world for resources if our economy can be competitive enough to bid for them on a free market.  Resources being diverted away from our own country is not a bad thing if those resources are being used optimally to provide goods and services more efficiently.  Trying to prop up economic strength through imperialism is hardly a plan for long term success, as we can see our own country buckling under the cost of the American empire and the debt we have accumulated to hide our inability to be competitive on a global market.  It's really to no ones benefit to run a country this way, and it is not sustainable in the long run.  Considering terrorism and global resentment, in fifty years we won't be the economic powerhouse.  If anything, other countries will do everything they can to hinder America on the world scene so we can never rise to power again, much like what we do to Russia.  Just like every other empire, we will fail and be worse off for it.  Instead of using resources to destroy wealth, we can be building it up to everyone's gain. Legitimate economic prosperity and wealth will be found in economic freedom, not through fascistic policies seeking temporary economic strength.  Free economies will attract all the resources they need without the need for an empire. 

Who has to die so we can have a "national identity"?  That's not an identity I or most people I know cares to be a part of. 

I'm not sure why you keep saying our national identity is essential for our "survival".  If our identity can be as subtle as people's respect for each others rights then I hardly see a point in making a fuss over it.  It seems like a moot point.  But correct me if I am wrong, you feel that there is an optimal identity that should be imposed on people because you think you can manage to socially engineer civilization in an optimal way.  You want to fight the drug war because recreational drug use does not fit in with your idea of a homogeneous population.  ( despite evidence to the contrary ) 

To wrap this up, I don't see any validity at all in what you have to say.  I don't think American imperialism to secure resources will do the country any good in the long run.  And I absolutely don't see a point in fostering a national identity.  Those kinds of things need to come about from the bottom up.  National identities need to be spontaneous and legitimate.  We don't need to propagandize our children/population into accepting a pre determined set of values.  We have tried that, and we waste billions on the drug war, and have pimps roaming the streets and the highest prison rate on earth.


Tric, we're arguing about different things.

This isn't a justification of imperialism, although I could justify it on other grounds, it's a justification of restricted border policies and immigration standards.

Who died? The people we killed in order to found and keep our country.

I don't particularly care about recreational drug use unless it comes in the form of harder drugs.

A national identity is necessary precisely for what you just outlined. Respect for rights cannot be maintained if individuals haven't been raised in a rights-friendly environment. And if individuals do not respect rights, they won't vote to protect them. That's what I fear, immigration without the necessary controls allows individuals in who have no sense of our culture. Respect for the Constitution needs to be instilled from a young age, it isn't impossible to do it later, but its far harder.
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