Where do you see an argument in my story? You know what an argument is? My story is metaphore about the christian god. You can make of it what you want. Agree with the inventor or not. An argument is judgemental and makes points to support a claim which I really tried to avoid. I might not have been succesful in doing so, but I tried to. So no, not an argument.

English is not my first language, I am not a very gifted writer and this story is probably not long enough to go deeper into the subject. So yeah, I have to agree with everything you said, its not very subtle and doesnt have a lot of layers, although I admit that I tried to write something to think about. Failed probably.

Maybe I should also mention that I wrote it specifically for 5th graders, but then went on to post it here because I was sort of lowkey proud of it? Anyways, I appreciate everything you said. Thank you.

This post was edited by Saurod on May 9 2025 07:19am

A true self? Our brain function gives us consciousness and consiousness is an equivalent for a true self. There is no mystery behind it. Also there is not just randomness and determinsim. You can control what you do, or can you not?

Saurod's plus 1 thread...

That's all this turned in to.

If not an argument, your pretty argumentative.

saying the brain gives rise to consciousness doesn’t explain free will, it just pushes the question back. if “you” are just a product of brain activity and all physics is fundamentally quantum mechanics which is fundamentally random, then it’s still random physical processes making the choices, not you in any meaningful sense.

also, claiming “there’s no mystery behind it” is completely unfounded. consciousness and the self are among the most debated and least understood topics in both philosophy and neuroscience. you’re assuming your worldview explains them, but that’s just begging the question. equating consciousness with a “true self” doesn’t justify free will as random brain states don’t create real agency or intentional choice.

The short story is not an argument for anything.

Has nothing to do with discussions in this thread tho.

then what caused the 'orderly process?

so your story? for whatever reason the machines became criminals. and the machines didnt want to stop being criminals? and they said we are not coming back we want separation. so they get their desire. what do you think should happen to criminals?

The more developed brains are, the more developed is consciousness. Consciousness is a result of brain complexity. Thats why you can lose consciousness after an accident or lose consciousness more and more as illnesses like dementia develop. I didnt mean no mystery in the sense of fully explained, i meant the cause of consciousness is no mystery. Science isnt devided on the topic. There is no debate about wether a soul or a "true agent" is involved or not.

Free Will is a result of consciousness. You can make conscious decisions because a healthy brain directs and controls impulses based on what you wanna do. Damaged brains or ill brains can mafunction the destroy your movements, your character, your own self. You can be a completely different person after your brain became damage, unrecognisable to loved ones even.

Nothing suggests anything but neurobiology behind it.

I didnt say they were criminals, I said they didnt do what the inventor wanted.

you're still assuming the conclusion that complex brain function "just is" agency without explaining how true agency arises from pure physical processes (which you have admitted are random fundamentally) using your naturalistic worldview. this is ad hoc.

if consciousness and decision-making are merely the result of physical processes then they aren't free in any meaningful sense. there’s no space for a true agent to make real choices. when you say 'you can make decisions,' in your framework, all you’re describing is a brain responding to physical stimuli, not an independent agent exercising agency.

the important part you need to address is how free will can exist within a naturalistic worldview. if everything is random events, the consciousness itself would fundamentally be cause and effect of random events and there would never actually be true choice or agency.