one wrinkle here is after doing more reading those who have Swyer Syndrome typically have lower testosterone levels. so there's still a chance this person is secretly trans, otherwise has some very odd XY case with atypical T levels.

but the chances that 2 of those people showed up for boxing in the same olympics is pretty small imo. typically i'd personally lean towards any "born with it" gifts being allowed, but T is a bit of an outlier. we haven't seen (yet) people getting limb lengthening surgery, but we have seen people doping Testosterone to gain an advantage. if you allow abnormal t levels you'll get a lot of people who have "naturally high t" and you'll need to require olympic atheletes from 3rd world countries to have decades of t level blood work. its about practicality of policing as much as the unfair advantage imo.

I only brought up Swyer Syndrome as one example for how women can have XY chromosomes and elevated testosterone levels. There's no specifics I could find online for Imane; however, there is enough to conclude that she is intersex rather than transgender. There are many kinds of intersex conditions.

This post was edited by Handcuffs on Aug 1 2024 10:28am

It's tricky because many sport federations use 1 year of sustained testosterone suppression as part of their eligibility; however, even then people are opposed to intersex or transgender women competing arguing that the 1 year of suppression does not obviate the development afforded by their previous testosterone levels.

I doubt there will ever be a 'perfect' solution to this dilemma. It may be a "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" kind of situation.

A quick look at the athletes who were barred from participating in the 400m and 800m events at the Tokyo Olympics shows they're all Africans and all suffer from very similar XY genetic conditions. The more famous one is Caster Semanya, who has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (thanks Wiki) which only affects genetic males. She was still allowed to compete and win gold in 2012 and 2016, despite basically being a man, with normal male testosterone levels.

This post was edited by Chainsaw47 on Aug 1 2024 10:41am

i did some digging and found this to be inaccurate. didnt find any cases of true biological females with XY intersex conditions that also had higher T levels. there are some cases of biolgical males with severe conditions where they present as females, but none of the XY female intersex conditions listed higher T.

thats just context tho based on my googling, not challenging your general point. the argument with any validity still remains biological females with high T naturally for any reason, XX, XY, or whatever.

“Those who transition after age 12 or later are now banned from women elite sports.”


This post was edited by Tarisus on Aug 1 2024 10:57am

You're right, I was mistaken about testosterone levels in Swyer's Syndrome--thanks for pointing that out. There's many different kinds of intersex conditions, so I do forget or mix up the specifics.

That said, intersex is the term that refers to biological sex for these athletes--so "biological female" or "biological male" is likely to muddy the conversation rather than elucidate it. And, given that sports are segregated via gender rather than sex (ie. Women's and Men's v. Male and Female) is where this issue finds itself in its complexity. There are some women who are intersex and subsequently do have elevated levels of testosterone, and given that they are women in every other facet of life (ie. legal documents from birth, government recognition, lived experience since birth, etc), what does this mean then for their eligibility for women's sport? I suppose we're finding out.

i used the biological labels in an attempt to unmuddy the waters but did not at all explain myself. intersex includes a bevy of conditions, some of which leaves individuals with male, female, or both genitalia (and hormonal makeups to either match or not match those genitalia).

so if this person has all female biology, but higher T, thats a rare bird. if this person has something like a mix of female and male genitalia (wouldnt fit the biological female labels as i was using it) and high T that would be more normal. if they have male genitali that presents as female (again off label) that fits right in with high T.

without further information my guess, and its a laymen's guess by a long ways, is that this Olympian fits into the 2nd or 3rd category. is not purely a biological female, and that is what has caused the higher T levels. that, or they are simply doping and a purely biological female. it is Algeria afterall, and they dont have perfect medical record im sure.


sidenote: trans issues are the best publicity intersex people have ever gotten. ive reasearched that 100x more than i ever would have because its a staple talking point in trans rights issue.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Aug 1 2024 11:09am

I'm not sure if the more clinical "Disorders of Sexual Development" as opposed to "Intersex" would help? I hear what you're saying, but attempts to utilize "biological female" or "biological male" when speaking about intersex people is a 'square peg, round hole' situation. Their sex isn't male or female, it's intersex. Their gender, however, may be woman or man--for instance.

i get what you mean as well, and i will always in pard unapologetically risk offending people with incorrect nomenclature, but am always willing to explain what i mean and wont try to offend, just risk it.

i think in this context the genitalia tends to match the T or E levels about 99.99% of the time as far as i can read. they may be intersex clinically, but athletically its either the T or E level that tends to matter.

id like to get a T level test on that absolute unit leading the Us womens rugby team. she is truly a specimen and im just curious.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Aug 1 2024 11:50am