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Sep 20 2023 01:36pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ 20 Sep 2023 21:12)
*The English fucked the UK with brexit. And by voting in successive Tory governments.


Fair.

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Sep 20 2023 04:19pm
Quote (Malopox @ 20 Sep 2023 10:04)
Hello fellow Dutchie.

Prinsjesdag this year is a complete mess. They are throwing money we can ill afford at the problem instead of addressing the source.

In my opinion the main problem is that govt needs to figure out - is inflation (which is not driven by financial leverage this time) and reduced productivity of the economy (due to post-covid lazyness/wfh) as well as insane energy price rises (due to Ukraine/Russia war) that permeate through the whole economy through diesel / gas/ energy prices for logistics/farmers/industry and what not.

The way I see it Netherlands has two choices - taper net zero ambitions and allow economy to recover a bit or make peace with the Russians so energy prices would go down and the economy can be competitive against Asia/Americans. Fat chance of that happening. So we will kick the can down the road as we usually do and slowly becoming a glorified tourist destination for the Yankees and the Chinese.

In the grand scheme of things Netherlands/EU should implement an analogue of Biden's Inflation Reduction Act to accelerate energy transition to ensure energy security domestically through new renewable generation / EVs/ batteries / grid investments and what not. This will reduce reliance on purchase of hydrocarbons from anybody (saying FU to Russians/Saudis/Americans ultimately). This will create jobs, will allow people to work and make an honest living outside of Randstad, increase tax base you can spend on defense and social programs as well as finally allow Europe to be energy self-sufficient. But we have just kicked out Shell, Unilever, DSM and on our way to kick out Boefkalis so yeah, what the fuck.

Now that is all and dandy, but lets go to the problem of demissionaire government we have now as well as upcoming elections where there is no more Rutte, Kaag and Hoekstra decided to go to be the King of Sustainability of the whole EU. Whom do we have left to lead - Timmermans? Wow okay.


How is a transition to renewable energy going to bring down energy prices as long as there's no way to store excess energy from sunny/windy days for cloudy, windstill days?
Without long-term and large-scale storage, we will always have to maintain a fossil- or nuclear-based parallel infrastructure to serve as our backup grid, which is of course expensive as fuck.

Likewise, renewable energy relies on a ton of rare earths for which the bulk of global deposits lies outside of Europe. Similar story for most of the production of solar panels and wind turbines. So this idea that Europe would become self-sufficient in terms of energy by going 100% renewable, and would thus no longer rely on authoritarian and tacitly hostile regimes, is actually a pipe dream.
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Sep 21 2023 12:04am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 21 Sep 2023 00:19)
How is a transition to renewable energy going to bring down energy prices as long as there's no way to store excess energy from sunny/windy days for cloudy, windstill days?
Without long-term and large-scale storage, we will always have to maintain a fossil- or nuclear-based parallel infrastructure to serve as our backup grid, which is of course expensive as fuck.

Likewise, renewable energy relies on a ton of rare earths for which the bulk of global deposits lies outside of Europe. Similar story for most of the production of solar panels and wind turbines. So this idea that Europe would become self-sufficient in terms of energy by going 100% renewable, and would thus no longer rely on authoritarian and tacitly hostile regimes, is actually a pipe dream.


Indeed you are right, therefore I made a remark that energy transition will “reduce reliance on”. We will never be able to replace hydrocarbons fully.

To properly move away from fossil fuels and ensure energy supply - the only two known and proven ways for humanity so far are hydro like it was done in Norway and parts of Canada and nuclear like it was done in France (and eg Taiwan before Tsai took over and ruined it all). Hydro is not available everywhere and the other option does make you reliant on nuclear fuel to power reactors.

Indeed adding storage to the grid is an issue as it stands now as technology is not yet there to scale sufficiently. I do not believe in huge grid battery systems storing enough to supply peaks after the sun goes down + resistance heating + industry. This could work on smaller scales with houses being taken off the grid with a combo of solar panels + home battery / EV for part of the richer population.

The real alternative being explored right now is hydrogen electrolysis which can be produced cheaply during the day when electricity rates can dip into negative with excess being burned in the evening / at night. The cost of this technology is unclear and hydrogen poses unique engineering challenges as it burns too hot for modern materials and evaporates at a faster rate than LNG / causes hydrogen embrittling when transported

The problem of rare earth metals and Lithium / Cobalt does exist as they have to be extracted somewhere, but unlike fossil fuels - they only need to be purchased once and can be recycled almost indefinitely. The trick is convincing the aboriginals to sell EU all their rare earths and battery metals before they realise what’s going on. Chinese already realized that decades ago and have been busy with it.

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Sep 21 2023 01:07am
Quote (Malopox @ 21 Sep 2023 08:04)
Indeed you are right, therefore I made a remark that energy transition will “reduce reliance on”. We will never be able to replace hydrocarbons fully.

To properly move away from fossil fuels and ensure energy supply - the only two known and proven ways for humanity so far are hydro like it was done in Norway and parts of Canada and nuclear like it was done in France (and eg Taiwan before Tsai took over and ruined it all). Hydro is not available everywhere and the other option does make you reliant on nuclear fuel to power reactors.

Indeed adding storage to the grid is an issue as it stands now as technology is not yet there to scale sufficiently. I do not believe in huge grid battery systems storing enough to supply peaks after the sun goes down + resistance heating + industry. This could work on smaller scales with houses being taken off the grid with a combo of solar panels + home battery / EV for part of the richer population.

The real alternative being explored right now is hydrogen electrolysis which can be produced cheaply during the day when electricity rates can dip into negative with excess being burned in the evening / at night. The cost of this technology is unclear and hydrogen poses unique engineering challenges as it burns too hot for modern materials and evaporates at a faster rate than LNG / causes hydrogen embrittling when transported

The problem of rare earth metals and Lithium / Cobalt does exist as they have to be extracted somewhere, but unlike fossil fuels - they only need to be purchased once and can be recycled almost indefinitely. The trick is convincing the aboriginals to sell EU all their rare earths and battery metals before they realise what’s going on. Chinese already realized that decades ago and have been busy with it.

The day-to-night storage can probably be solved by a full transition of individual mobility to EVs, coupled with smart grids. Use the massive amounts of batteries that will be present due to all the cars, use it as a decentralized mass storage which is charged up during the day and supplying the grid at night when the sun doesn't shine. The much bigger problem is cross-seasonal storage, i.e. storing the excess solar energy from the summer for the winter.

The big problem with hydrogen is that electrolysis has an atrocious energy conversion efficiency, so bad that it's unlikely that we will ever be able to supply enough renewable energy in Europe to produce the required amounts of green hydrogen. It's why many European countries are already beginning to look for partnerships with Middle Eastern or North African countries for the export of green hydrogen which these countries will produce with gigantic solar farms in the desert.
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