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Oct 15 2023 05:00pm
LGBT for hamas!
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Oct 15 2023 05:07pm
in before, not Voltaire.
Don't care who said it, the point is still valid.



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Oct 15 2023 05:08pm
Quote (Landmine @ 16 Oct 2023 00:37)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vILpx8i-Dy4&pp=ygUbRGVhdGggd2FzIGEgYmxlc3NpbmcgaXNyYWVshttp://savefrom.net/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvILpx8i-Dy4%26pp%3DygUbRGVhdGggd2FzIGEgYmxlc3NpbmcgaXNyYWVs&utm_source=ff&utm_medium=extensions&utm_campaign=link_modifier[/URL]


absolutely gut-wrenching. that is just as heartbreaking as all the countless stories and fates families, of fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers, that lost their loved ones to israeli terror and violence.

unlike yours, my empathy extends to the innocent victims on both sides.
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Oct 15 2023 05:08pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Oct 15 2023 03:49pm)
Exactly!


might as well not know anything

Quote (Landmine @ Oct 15 2023 03:52pm)
Germany and France shutting down all pro Palestine protests. Hopefully none of our local pard members end up in jail.


any links to back up your claim?
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Oct 15 2023 05:12pm
Quote (TiStuff @ Oct 15 2023 04:08pm)
might as well not know anything


Now you're starting to get it!
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Oct 15 2023 05:13pm
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Oct 15 2023 05:32pm
what will the ground war be like in gaza. i vaguely remember a documentary about a city battle fallugh (iraq) the locals were advised to get out. there was a mass exodus and then the combatants went at it. US marines vrs islamic factions

Quote (Handcuffs @ Oct 15 2023 04:12pm)
Now you're starting to get it!


well at least you got it narrowed down

Quote (Landmine @ Oct 15 2023 04:13pm)


ty

This post was edited by TiStuff on Oct 15 2023 05:33pm
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Oct 15 2023 05:44pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ 16 Oct 2023 00:58)
I think you're reading something in my post that isn't there. I'm not invoking the continued existence of Hamas to justify anything.

The reality is that Hamas would continue to exist even if Israel took every step that you and I would agree to. What is to be done about that, either by Israel and/or (preferably) an international response? Is Hamas an existential threat to Israel? No. Can they (and have they) done some massive fucking damage such that they need to be dealt with? Yes.


and i agreed they need to be dealt with, for practical reasons. and do you know what'd be an incredibly potent way to do that? just take away their number one recruiting tool: the unjust suffering of the palestinian people at the hands of a brutal and illegal occupation. this might not be common knowledge, but people living in relative freedom and prosperity tend to be a lot less radical and hateful than those suffering from hunger and oppression. (this snark is not directed at you, i know you understand that, it's a comment for the pro-occupation crowd)

and again, when it comes to hamas, or radical voices within palestine in general, israel's conservatives need to stop propping them up for political reasons, and more moderate voices will rise to the forefront again - like they did before.
but we all know netanyahu won't do that. he has vowed to never allow a palestinian state. he has sworn to maintain the illegal occupation for as long as he's in charge. he has treated hamas as an asset for his cause.

so maybe we need to start asking how to remove THOSE radicals in the way of a lasting peace as well? because they are the ones calling the shots on the side that has all the power.
yet for some reason only the occupied, only the palestinians are expected to de-radicalise...

to be clear, i was NOT trying to suggest or read into your post that you uncritically subscribe to it yourself, i can see that you are asking genuine questions about aspects that interest you - i'm just letting you know that to me, your approach of treating it like the only or at least the main obstacle to peace, inherently bolsters the "hamas and any potential radical has to be completely dealt with before we even consider stopping our blatant human rights violations" line of argument. however, it crucially leaves the other side of the equation completely unaddressed, and frames the conversation in a way that portrays the occupiers as the victims, desperately looking for a reasonable solution, while in reality they have supported hardliners for decades, and are currently not even moving an inch in order to address their own opposition to a peaceful resolution that doesn't involve a systemic violation of human rights...
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Oct 15 2023 05:51pm
Quote (fender @ Oct 15 2023 04:44pm)
and i agreed they need to be dealt with, for practical reasons. and do you know what'd be an incredibly potent way to do that? just take away their number one recruiting tool: the unjust suffering of the palestinian people at the hands of a brutal and illegal occupation. this might not be common knowledge, but people living in relative freedom and prosperity tend to be a lot less radical and hateful than those suffering from hunger and oppression. (this snark is not directed at you, i know you understand that, it's a comment for the pro-occupation crowd)

and again, when it comes to hamas, or radical voices within palestine in general, israel's conservatives need to stop propping them up for political reasons, and more moderate voices will rise to the forefront again - like they did before.
but we all know netanyahu won't do that. he has vowed to never allow a palestinian state. he has sworn to maintain the illegal occupation for as long as he's in charge. he has treated hamas as an asset for his cause.

so maybe we need to start asking how to remove THOSE radicals in the way of a lasting peace as well? because they are the ones calling the shots on the side that has all the power.
yet for some reason only the occupied, only the palestinians are expected to de-radicalise...

to be clear, i was NOT trying to suggest or read into your post that you uncritically subscribe to it yourself, i can see that you are asking genuine questions about aspects that interest you - i'm just letting you know that to me, your approach of treating it like the only or at least the main obstacle to peace, inherently bolsters the "hamas and any potential radical has to be completely dealt with before we even consider stopping our blatant human rights violations" line of argument. however, it crucially leaves the other side of the equation completely unaddressed, and frames the conversation in a way that portrays the occupiers as the victims, desperately looking for a reasonable solution, while in reality they have supported hardliners for decades, and are currently not even moving an inch in order to address their own opposition to a peaceful resolution that doesn't involve a systemic violation of human rights...


I can understand why that imbalance may be seen. My hope was to lean heavily into the hypothetical in which Israel takes all levels of needed accountability, to include the very things you're describing in terms of leadership change. My anticipation is that there is nothing short of completely leaving the region that would make Hamas content.

The civilians of Palestine and Israel may be open to peace. The Israeli government and Hamas are the barriers to that peace. The Israeli government can at least be challenged and communicated with much more easily than Hamas can. I worry that there is no level of accountability short of the dissolution of the State of Israel that will get Hamas to stop. While I do think there's something to be said about reducing the conditions that funnels average Palestinians into Hamas, the reality is that Hamas is the strongest force in Gaza. Is the expectation that Palestinian civilians overthrow Hamas? Hamas seems highly violent against critics.
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Oct 15 2023 06:14pm
Quote (Landmine @ 15 Oct 2023 23:46)
Yeah Hamas keeps attacking Israel every year. That’s why the death count is higher on the side that’s running towards a defended position. You’re smarter than this… don’t be a liar to cover up your prejudice.


Senior UN relief official calls for ‘immediate unconditional’ access for life-saving aid in Gaza

https://news.un.org/en/interview/2023/10/1142372

Trash troll.



This post was edited by Meanwhile on Oct 15 2023 06:15pm
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