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Sep 9 2020 09:13am
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 9 2020 10:08am)
strangely enough a robot greeter scares off customers.

historical data for automation pre-replacement stage (aka pre robotics) is the equivalent of bringing up "Africans sold each other into slavery" into a civil rights discussion.

raising the minimum wage in 2020 will result in unemployment, underemployment, and outsourcing jobs overseas.

i dont think you people get it some times, i dont think you realize when i walk into a factory that has 20 day labrorers and redo their setup, that 5 get fired or phased out, 5 more get put on 30-35 hours a week instead of 40 with overtime, and 10 are lucky to keep their jobs as is but are looking at no raises for a few years. i do this weekly. ive got crossing picket line stories i could write a book on.

"that's going to happen anyways" = "the house is on fire, toss gas on it".

and it reeks of white privilege, the people worse affected will be minorities or those in impoverished communities. y'all need to check yourselves. im looking at making insane amounts of money if you people are put in charge.


I'm not bringing up historical data. I'm bringing up data in the last 10 years. In the last 10 years minimum wage increases have not resulted in increased unemployment.

In terms of unemployment due to automation, I think we should accelerate the effect. Instead of boiling the frog slowly and letting people get used to it, let's force it to happen faster so the people get pissed and we get real change. The faster it happens and the more unrest the better. Good things happen when people get pissed about injustices.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Sep 9 2020 09:15am
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Sep 9 2020 09:18am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 9 2020 10:13am)
I'm not bringing up historical data. I'm bringing up data in the last 10 years. In the last 10 years minimum wage increases have not resulted in increased unemployment.


whoa you're telling me coming out of a recession unemployment went down? crazy bro.

how can you libs think corporations are evil doers and also that they'll take into account value provided by laborers in a moral way AND that they'll hire not just as many but more people if it costs them more?

also, in a robotics sense the last 10 years has been leaps and bounds. same with many tasks, case packers, wrappers, cnc welding, check weighers, metal detectors, photo eye driven automatic e stops, lane merger controls arb tech, etc.
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Sep 9 2020 09:19am
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 9 2020 11:08am)
strangely enough a robot greeter scares off customers.



historical data for automation pre-replacement stage (aka pre robotics) is the equivalent of bringing up "Africans sold each other into slavery" into a civil rights discussion.

raising the minimum wage in 2020 will result in unemployment, underemployment, and outsourcing jobs overseas.

i dont think you people get it some times, i dont think you realize when i walk into a factory that has 20 day labrorers and redo their setup, that 5 get fired or phased out, 5 more get put on 30-35 hours a week instead of 40 with overtime, and 10 are lucky to keep their jobs as is but are looking at no raises for a few years. i do this weekly. ive got crossing picket line stories i could write a book on.

"that's going to happen anyways" = "the house is on fire, toss gas on it".

and it reeks of white privilege, the people worse affected will be minorities or those in impoverished communities. y'all need to check yourselves. im looking at making insane amounts of money if you people are put in charge.


Right. Poor people w/ minimal job skills and experience will especially have a harder time finding a job.

Thor will cherry pick flawed studies looking at very small minimum wage increases in a couple of counties and only look at overall unemployment numbers to try to disprove the negative effects of a higher minimum wage.
This doesn't account for the poor displaced by middle class workers.
Recent examples like Seattle will also be ignored.
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Sep 9 2020 09:21am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Sep 9 2020 10:19am)
Right. Poor people w/ minimal job skills and experience will especially have a harder time finding a job.

Thor will cherry pick flawed studies looking at very small minimum wage increases in a couple of counties and only look at overall unemployment numbers to try to disprove the negative effects of a higher minimum wage.
This doesn't account for the poor displaced by middle class workers.
Recent examples like Seattle will also be ignored.


the min wage argument has always been people listening to loud people in Portland, Seattle, LA, NYC, etc. while people in alabama, oklahoma, etc beg them not to do anything nationwide. and they cite a few soft hearted CEOs willing to dilute their fortunes as if fortune 500 companies subject to stock prices and a board of directors will do the same.
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Sep 9 2020 09:23am
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 9 2020 10:18am)
whoa you're telling me coming out of a recession unemployment went down? crazy bro.

how can you libs think corporations are evil doers and also that they'll take into account value provided by laborers in a moral way AND that they'll hire not just as many but more people if it costs them more?

also, in a robotics sense the last 10 years has been leaps and bounds. same with many tasks, case packers, wrappers, cnc welding, check weighers, metal detectors, photo eye driven automatic e stops, lane merger controls arb tech, etc.


This was compared to other places that didn't raise the minimum wage, so the "coming out of a recession" is controlled for.

There is no moral calculation. If the worker provides more value than they cost, they will be hired and worked. Once they reach a point where adding more workers does not increase the value produced, they won't hire more. The line where they stop hiring workers is dependent on the demand, not the cost of the individual worker, unless the cost of the individual worker outpaces the value that worker produces, which even for places where cost of labor is one of the largest factors virtually never happens.

Yeah, in the last 10 years automation has grown. The idea that automation will outpace job creation and result in mass unemployment is still a theoretical one. We aren't seeing it yet, and it has never happened in all of our history, but it might happen if current trends stay the same.
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Sep 9 2020 09:53am
Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 9 2020 11:21am)
the min wage argument has always been people listening to loud people in Portland, Seattle, LA, NYC, etc. while people in alabama, oklahoma, etc beg them not to do anything nationwide. and they cite a few soft hearted CEOs willing to dilute their fortunes as if fortune 500 companies subject to stock prices and a board of directors will do the same.


Most of those CEO's are in industries like tech, where the min salary is like double the min wage. Easy to get on a high horse when in reality it's not something that impacts your industry.
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Sep 9 2020 11:20am
Quote (thesnipa @ 9 Sep 2020 11:08)
strangely enough a robot greeter scares off customers.



historical data for automation pre-replacement stage (aka pre robotics) is the equivalent of bringing up "Africans sold each other into slavery" into a civil rights discussion.

raising the minimum wage in 2020 will result in unemployment, underemployment, and outsourcing jobs overseas.

i dont think you people get it some times, i dont think you realize when i walk into a factory that has 20 day labrorers and redo their setup, that 5 get fired or phased out, 5 more get put on 30-35 hours a week instead of 40 with overtime, and 10 are lucky to keep their jobs as is but are looking at no raises for a few years. i do this weekly. ive got crossing picket line stories i could write a book on.

"that's going to happen anyways" = "the house is on fire, toss gas on it".

and it reeks of white privilege, the people worse affected will be minorities or those in impoverished communities. y'all need to check yourselves. im looking at making insane amounts of money if you people are put in charge.



that’s fine and dandy and all but will your automation filter out systemic racism in AI!!?!?!

https://searchcio.techtarget.com/feature/Rooting-out-racism-in-AI-systems-theres-no-time-to-lose

*LAUGH OUT LOUD*
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Sep 9 2020 11:25am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 9 2020 10:23am)
This was compared to other places that didn't raise the minimum wage, so the "coming out of a recession" is controlled for.

There is no moral calculation. If the worker provides more value than they cost, they will be hired and worked. Once they reach a point where adding more workers does not increase the value produced, they won't hire more. The line where they stop hiring workers is dependent on the demand, not the cost of the individual worker, unless the cost of the individual worker outpaces the value that worker produces, which even for places where cost of labor is one of the largest factors virtually never happens.

Yeah, in the last 10 years automation has grown. The idea that automation will outpace job creation and result in mass unemployment is still a theoretical one.We aren't seeing it yet, and it has never happened in all of our history, but it might happen if current trends stay the same.


this is due to a list of factors that are no longer relevant, i can list some that after you read if you still find the future theoretical i can do no more.

1. worker displacement vs worker replacement.

historically when a job process is automated displaced workers could transition into a new job using a large part of the skills they had on the replaced job. paired with the fact that new jobs were always available for that set of skills. one factory lays off its workers due to automation or outsourcing and the workers displace to several other firms ready and able to take on new workers that need little training compared to new hires. with unskilled labor drying up in modern times and positions like semi truck driver all but doomed there will be no sponge to soak up these displaced workers. they'll create economically stagnant zones in america that cause more and more Trumps to rise to power, much as he motivated displaced coal workers, lead miners, factory workers, etc to vote in towns and regions that once flourished but are now dead.

2. unidirectional vs dual pronged focus of automation

typically workers were able to displace as described above because an industry would automate, but tangential industries would not. baseball seamers eliminated all seamstress labor for baseballs, but large industries still needed seamstresses. and in general a bottom up approach to automation was used, therein the least skilled positions which were the easiest to automate got the axe first. and while more skill was required to find a job in a tangential industry your relevant skills still got you a large part of the way to knowing that position. with all industries in the modern time automating at the same time and skilled laborers becoming a target just as much as unskilled this is now no longer a bottom up meta. its a bottom up, top down, and sideways in approach squeezing all sectors simultaneously. accountants, shop workers, skilled welders, assembly workers, bakers, miners, etc. no one is safe any longer.

3. barriers to full automation

historically cost and technological advancement were the barriers to automation, this is no longer the cost. automated processes pay themselves off in no time, and the technology to do almost all low skill and medium skilled jobs at a rate and quality surpassing a human exists now. the new barrier is PR and unions. this causes corporations to slowly bleed the workers, lower workers to 35 hrs, remove benifits, etc. to offset the cost of now automating now. as this constinues you eventually hit a breaking point, laying off 200 workers is insanely bad PR, 50 less so, once it's 20 it will become 3 over night. as these sectors fall workers will find displacement not an option. if it is an option they'll get part time at best.

in general corporations through technology can eliminate their own demand, they can all simultaneously using a combination of savings and tax credits fully automate almost everything now. but in doing so they'll eliminate their own consumers. so instead they will await a UBI to be 100% needed to essentially farm new consumers, then full replacement begins. in the mean time corporate greed eeks us closer to this 100% need for UBI.

4. pace of automation

as automation is an exponential growth in the early stages workers were able to react to the growth, and in many cases retire with less savings than they'd hoped to get but survive. as the growth curve turns due north, as it is doing now, workers will not be able to react. savings will be rapidly depleted, houses sold/foreclosed on, and economic deadzones will be created with dirt cheap apartment complexes replacing the suburban neighborhood. all the while corporations and banks will by the property and swell their incomes even further.




in short we needed UBI 10 years ago to stand a chance to ride the waves, we need it now to stand a chance to come out the other side decently, and in 10 years it will be too late to prevent a recession that bucks the 20 year economic cycle. America will lose its place in the world, american corporations will turn to foreign markets to sell their goods to countries that already give citizens money to remain consumers, and politicians like Trump will rise to offer false promises of fixing the deadzones that without a change to the electoral college will cause a 50 or so year period of economic hard times where the only cure (automation tax, export taxes, and UBI) will be public enemy #1 from conservative politicians drawing on outdated economic theories to maintain a stranglehold on the new class of voters the decide every election, the unskilled, the unemployed, the unsave-able.


whether my industry destroys america or empowers it to a new height ill be a rich man. its all of you that are taking the chance on a coin flip, head, tails, doesnt matter to me. but pumping min wage, increasing worker rights, mandating larger percent of health care paid by employers, paid family leave, etc. all of these will result in an antithetical result, not worker empowerment, but worker extinction.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 9 2020 11:26am
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Sep 9 2020 11:36am
the whole 'raising the minimum wage will increase unemployment and therefore is a net negative for the working class' argument is so incredibly dishonest and wrong that it genuinely baffles me that some shills would write whole essays to defend it, or make it in the first place. why are there so many economic illiterates on the right?!
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Sep 9 2020 12:13pm
Better watch out Joe. Trump is about to buy himself a Nobel Peace prize.
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