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#181
Jan 23 2020 02:15pm
Quote (thundercock @ Jan 23 2020 03:05pm)
Let's be real though. Because the Republicans are firmly behind the President, they have no interest in actually having an actual investigation. It was going to be partisan no matter what. A small portion of the electorate, maybe 30%, is interested in bipartisanship. Everyone else has no interest in the truth or principle, just power.


Of course, just as the Democratic House has zero intention of engaging Republicans and prosecuted the case to find a "guilty" verdict from the get go.

This was always going to play out in the court of public opinion, the Senate has no political motive to turn over the reins to the minority and allow them to call potentially damaging witnesses, whether their accounts are true or false.
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#182
Jan 23 2020 02:22pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 23 2020 03:05pm)
this investigation is following the exact precedent, minus the independent investigator. and im sure if they followed that path you'd say they're dragging it out and/or you would say the investigator is too biased.

update me. during the Clinton impeachment...
was the minority denied their witnesses in the house?
did the house leader instruct witnesses not to answer certain questions asked by the minority?

if the above and below is "yes". then i'll shut up.

is it normal for a President to be charged with a crime because the house refuses to fight executive authority in court? (in this case, "just the idea" of executive authority was enough)

if not, i'll think of a lot i can add to this section through-out the day if i must.

edit: adding to "investigator being biased"
didn't we already go through this with Mueller? i was pretty upfront about the "investigation" being bogus, but i also stated it wasn't Mueller's fault and to let him finish.

This post was edited by tagged4nothing on Jan 23 2020 02:26pm
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#183
Jan 23 2020 02:24pm
Quote (ThatAlex @ 23 Jan 2020 20:12)
My point is that the GOP's goalposts keep moving.

Not enough Americans support impeachment - not true
No unlawful behavior was actually comitted - not true
Not enough Americans support removal - not true
Not enough Republicans support witnesses in the Senate trial - not true

The GOP is now at the point of saying, well, unlawful behavior was committed, and the President probably did withhold funds from a foreign country to investigate a political opponent, but even though most Americans, including Republicans, want to hear more about all this in the Senate, we don't think it's bad enough to convict and we need to move on.

You guys gonna be cool when AOC holds aid from Syria in 2028 for some dirt on Nikki Haley? Is this the precedent we want to set, or is it just politically convenient at this particular time to do nothing about it?


so many things in this...
  • trump has already been impeached, so impeachment itself is no longer in question. the debate is about removal or acquittal. and there are not enough americans in support of removal right now. first, even though some polls show 50+x% in support, poll aggregators still have support for removal at below 50%. second, overturning an election by removing a sitting president from office is an extremely drastic step that absolutely shouldnt be taken lightly. hence, the constitution requires a two-thirds majority of the jurors (= senators) for good reason. public support for removal doesnt come anywhere near that.
  • aoc will never be president ;)
  • the "enough republicans in the senate would support witnesses" talking point is misleading. they certainly dont support additional witnesses which are selected exclusively by the democrats. if anything, they would support to call a balanced bunch of witnesses, including hunter or joe biden. I'm not sure if the Democrats would actually be in for that deal (a la 'you get bolton if we get biden'). furthermore, even if a majority of senators wanted to call witnesses like bolton or mulvaney, these witnesses themselves, or the administration, could still insist on executive privilege and delay things for months, potentially until after the election. therefore, in practical terms, it doesnt make sense to go down this rabbit hole. the dems in the house knew that, it's the reason why they rushed the process so much in their chamber. the same logic still applies, and the GOP senators who might be on the fence (collins, gardner, romney, murkowski) know it.
  • the "trump coerced a foreign country into investigating his political rival" talking point can still be spun in the other way as "trump insisted on the foreign country assisting in a legitimate corruption investigation". wanting an investigation into the questionable behavior of the bidens is still a legitimate objective, even if trump's motivation was corrupt.


This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 23 2020 02:30pm
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#184
Jan 23 2020 02:27pm
Quote (Bazi @ 23 Jan 2020 20:54)
Yeah at this point GOP are spinning themselves in circles for the next election, lot of seats up for grabs and they truly need Trumps approval to have a shot at keeping those seats.

Interesting thing will be in 2024 when trump is done, what do they stand for then? Do they go back to traditional conservatism or what? Just like after Bush’s 8 years where McCain got slaughtered running on same principles. The party has transformed in the last 3 years


The Bush/Cheney neocon version of the GOP is dead, and after Trump, the fiscally conservative Romney/Ryan version will be dead as well. Imho, it's fairly clear where the GOP is headed under Trump and also after him: economic populism and cultural conservatism.
The voter realignment we've seen in 2016 and 2018 is here to stay if you ask me.
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#185
Jan 23 2020 02:38pm
Quote (tagged4nothing @ Jan 23 2020 02:22pm)
update me. during the Clinton impeachment...
was the minority denied their witnesses in the house?
did the house leader instruct witnesses not to answer certain questions asked by the minority?

if the above and below is "yes". then i'll shut up.

is it normal for a President to be charged with a crime because the house refuses to fight executive authority in court? (in this case, "just the idea" of executive authority was enough)

if not, i'll think of a lot i can add to this section through-out the day if i must.

edit: adding to "investigator being biased"
didn't we already go through this with Mueller? i was pretty upfront about the "investigation" being bogus, but i also stated it wasn't Mueller's fault and to let him finish.


You're just narrowing your focus to avoid the hard truth tbh.

the simple fact is the dems in 2020 are playing it as dirty and its as political as the GOP played it against clinton. many of of the same GOP slobs crying now were literally there.

you can point to minute differences between two investigations 20 some odd years apart against 2 different people for 2 different crimes tho, if it makes you feel like the above simple truth doesnt matter. i tend to lean towards simple truths, rather than complicated apologetics. the whole "but but but did they do this exact thing exactly like this" bullshit is just giving Lindsay Graham a boner, it certainly doesnt change anything here in pard.
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#186
Jan 23 2020 02:41pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 23 2020 02:27pm)
The Bush/Cheney neocon version of the GOP is dead, and after Trump, the fiscally conservative Romney/Ryan version will be dead as well. Imho, it's fairly clear where the GOP is headed under Trump and also after him: economic populism and cultural conservatism.
The voter realignment we've seen in 2016 and 2018 is here to stay if you ask me.


you think trump's policies are in line with that of the "populist" middle class?
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#187
Jan 23 2020 02:47pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 23 2020 03:38pm)
You're just narrowing your focus to avoid the hard truth tbh.

the simple fact is the dems in 2020 are playing it as dirty and its as political as the GOP played it against clinton. many of of the same GOP slobs crying now were literally there.

you can point to minute differences between two investigations 20 some odd years apart against 2 different people for 2 different crimes tho, if it makes you feel like the above simple truth doesnt matter. i tend to lean towards simple truths, rather than complicated apologetics. the whole "but but but did they do this exact thing exactly like this" bullshit is just giving Lindsay Graham a boner, it certainly doesnt change anything here in pard.

my original point is that one was being charged with a crime, with actions and evidence confirmed by independent investigation.
and one is being charged with contempt of congress. it's not a "crime of the President", for the house to refuse to do it's job.

what exactly is following the same precedent though?
it started in the house and now it's in the senate? (weeks later)
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#188
Jan 23 2020 02:52pm
A majority of americans want to see trump removed from office, crazy stuff hu ?
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#189
Jan 23 2020 02:56pm
Quote (tagged4nothing @ Jan 23 2020 02:47pm)
my original point is that one was being charged with a crime, with actions and evidence confirmed by independent investigation.
and one is being charged with contempt of congress. it's not a "crime of the President", for the house to refuse to do it's job.

what exactly is following the same precedent though?
it started in the house and now it's in the senate? (weeks later)


ummm buddy..... Bill Clinton committed crimes during the investigation, which was started because the GOP didnt like him getting a blowjob.

if you dont understand the gravity of the above bolded i cant help you. just get it man.
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#190
Jan 23 2020 03:08pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 23 2020 03:56pm)
ummm buddy..... Bill Clinton committed crimes during the investigation, which was started because the GOP didnt like him getting a blowjob.

if you dont understand the gravity of the above bolded i cant help you. just get it man.

during the investigation, but not during the impeachment... the Starr Report and the evidence inside, was what initiated the impeachment.
this would be like using Mueller's report to impeach Trump. (they were unable to bring a case)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starr_Report
Quote
Counsel concluded its four-year-long investigation

Quote
Delivered to the United States Congress on September 9, 1998

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton
Quote
The impeachment of Bill Clinton was initiated on October 8, 1998


This post was edited by tagged4nothing on Jan 23 2020 03:10pm
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