d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > 70 Years Ago Today, Something Important Happened
Prev1171819202123Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 9,614
Joined: Apr 23 2008
Gold: 268.15
May 16 2018 11:46am
Quote (ofthevoid @ May 16 2018 07:02pm)
There's really only two arguments of what gives someone claim over land. History and/or power. Israel has the historical rights to that land over Arabs. Israel also has the "power" to hold that land.

We in the US might not have the historical right to this land but having the power to posses supersedes history


What you say is wrong.
If we consider the theory of culturalism as accurate, then there is a need for the Jews to cultivate their particular intelligence.
And for that, there is need for a Jewish society.

This post was edited by Chevaucheur on May 16 2018 11:48am
Member
Posts: 52,224
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,902.00
May 16 2018 11:51am
Quote (BardOfXiix @ May 16 2018 10:51am)
When the British OETA took over governance the land was about 80% Islamic and about 10% Jewish. They then pushed a Jewish agenda (not some conspiracy or w/e, an actual agenda of promoting Zionism and establishing a Jewish nation, which was one of the agreements when the British OETA was given the task of governance) to increase the Jewish population and economic hold, giving Jews disproportionate representation in the local puppet government, and promoting Jewish dominance in an area that had been dominated by Islam (and was still, population-wise, dominated by Islam) for several centuries.

The Jews, obviously, were quite happy with what shook out in terms of the official creation of a Jewish state. The Arabs, who had lived in that land for centuries, were obviously not. The British, being the conquerors, imposed their will.

To me it's very strange that you support these actions, which all seem to involve big-government intervention and an imposition of what feels like a "Social Contract" of sorts on the members of Palestine, where the persons living in the area had no say over what happened to their area. The Palestinians are naturally defending the land that they view as theirs, which had been theirs for centuries, against what they view as unlawful seizure. I know you tend to support autonomy of individuals (Waco, Ruby Ridge, Bundy), so I'm wondering what makes this situation distinct from those moments.


Both Jews and Palestinians want to self-determine, and when they were afforded the opportunity, only the Jews embraced it. The Palestinians basically said "there will be no self determination for the Jews so we don't accept our own autonomy in protest." Instead, they started a war to deny self-determination to the Jews.
Member
Posts: 65,046
Joined: Jul 7 2008
Gold: Locked
May 16 2018 11:54am
Quote (Santara @ May 16 2018 10:51am)
Both Jews and Palestinians want to self-determine, and when they were afforded the opportunity, only the Jews embraced it. The Palestinians basically said "there will be no self determination for the Jews so we don't accept our own autonomy in protest." Instead, they started a war to deny self-determination to the Jews.


But wasn't the Palestinians' right to self-determine infringed upon by the British?

Also is this situation at all analogous to the Waco/RR/Bundy stuff or am I way off base with that comparison?
Member
Posts: 16,992
Joined: Sep 18 2010
Gold: 30,244.60
May 16 2018 01:38pm
Member
Posts: 49,289
Joined: Jun 18 2006
Gold: 11.77
May 16 2018 01:42pm
Quote (EA7 @ May 16 2018 02:38pm)


Nice.
Member
Posts: 52,224
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,902.00
May 16 2018 01:51pm
Quote (BardOfXiix @ May 16 2018 12:54pm)
But wasn't the Palestinians' right to self-determine infringed upon by the British?

Also is this situation at all analogous to the Waco/RR/Bundy stuff or am I way off base with that comparison?


They never had it until the British gave it to them. They were subjects of the Ottoman sultan, then they were the spoils of war for the British, and after throwing away the opportunity afforded by the British, the Israelis have essentially kept it from them too.

I guess I just don't see the analogy you're shooting for here.
Member
Posts: 65,046
Joined: Jul 7 2008
Gold: Locked
May 16 2018 02:10pm
Quote (Santara @ May 16 2018 12:51pm)
They never had it until the British gave it to them. They were subjects of the Ottoman sultan, then they were the spoils of war for the British, and after throwing away the opportunity afforded by the British, the Israelis have essentially kept it from them too.

I guess I just don't see the analogy you're shooting for here.


So you stand by the British government's authority to impose its will on the local population without their consent, by virtue of conquest and a state monopoly on force, as opposed to giving the people therein the right to self-govern?

Palestine, while a territory of the Ottoman Sultanate, was its own distinct "state" if you will, so it had some precedence to exist as its own entity, even if it wasn't an independent nation. It would be akin to someone conquering the U.S., then cutting a huge hole in the middle of Ohio and moving all the Amish there.
/e
Forget the Waco shit I guess I can't really put my finger on the similarities well enough.

This post was edited by BardOfXiix on May 16 2018 02:11pm
Member
Posts: 61,686
Joined: Mar 14 2006
Gold: 28.77
May 16 2018 03:00pm
Israel commits a Waco style event against Palestine nearly every day.
Member
Posts: 52,224
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,902.00
May 16 2018 03:08pm
Quote (BardOfXiix @ May 16 2018 03:10pm)
So you stand by the British government's authority to impose its will on the local population without their consent, by virtue of conquest and a state monopoly on force, as opposed to giving the people therein the right to self-govern?

Palestine, while a territory of the Ottoman Sultanate, was its own distinct "state" if you will, so it had some precedence to exist as its own entity, even if it wasn't an independent nation. It would be akin to someone conquering the U.S., then cutting a huge hole in the middle of Ohio and moving all the Amish there.
/e
Forget the Waco shit I guess I can't really put my finger on the similarities well enough.


I stand by a nation's right to impose its will after winning a war, especially so when they didn't start it. And they did offer the right to self-govern. They just didn't make them a single state. I think your analogy would be more apt if you were describing splitting up North and South Carolina between tories and revolutionaries.
Member
Posts: 9,614
Joined: Apr 23 2008
Gold: 268.15
May 16 2018 03:38pm
Quote (BardOfXiix @ May 16 2018 10:10pm)
So you stand by the British government's authority to impose its will on the local population without their consent, by virtue of conquest and a state monopoly on force, as opposed to giving the people therein the right to self-govern?

Palestine, while a territory of the Ottoman Sultanate, was its own distinct "state" if you will, so it had some precedence to exist as its own entity, even if it wasn't an independent nation. It would be akin to someone conquering the U.S., then cutting a huge hole in the middle of Ohio and moving all the Amish there.
/e
Forget the Waco shit I guess I can't really put my finger on the similarities well enough.


There is a lack of social intelligence in the world society.
In fact, there was no international convention at that time.
(United Nation was created after the World War 2)

The Muslims have never hesitated to colonize and to wars.
If you do not want to be defeated by Muslims, then you have to defend yourself, and that means offering territories to the people who need them.

This post was edited by Chevaucheur on May 16 2018 03:39pm
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1171819202123Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll